Zevachim 81 - THE ARGUMENT OF R. ELIEZER AND THE CHACHAMIM
1) THE ARGUMENT OF R. ELIEZER AND THE CHACHAMIM
(a) Question #6 (Mishnah): If blood that requires four Matanos (e.g. Olah) became mixed with blood that requires one (e.g. Bechor - R. Eliezer says that we do four Matanos...)
1. Suggestion: Perhaps here also, minimal Shi'urim were mixed, and R. Eliezer means that we do four Matanos on behalf of the Olah and one on behalf of the Bechor (i.e. all the blood is thrown)!
2. Rejection: If so, R. Yehoshua would not say 'You transgress Bal Tosif' (because (perhaps) all the blood of the Bechor is in one Zerikah, as it should be)!
(b) Answer (and Answer #2 to Questions 1-5 - Rava): In the Mishnah and Tosefta, R. Eliezer and Chachamim argue about buckets of blood that became mixed up (but perhaps if the bloods were mixed together, R. Eliezer would say that Ein Bilah):
1. R. Eliezer views blood being put in the wrong place as if it was water (therefore, he permits it in order to Machshir the other Korban), Chachamim do not.
(c) Question: They do argue about when the bloods are mixed!
1. (Beraisa - R. Yehudah): R. Eliezer and Chachamim agree that a mixture of blood of Chatas and Olah is offered;
2. They agree that if blood of a Rove'a or Nirva was mixed with blood of a Kosher Korban, it is not offered;
3. They argue about blood of a Ba'al Mum and blood of a Tam that were mixed together:
i. R. Eliezer says, we offer it, whether the bloods were mixed together or whether the buckets became mixed up;
ii. Chachamim forbid offering it.
(d) Answer: According to R. Yehudah, R. Eliezer permits whether or not the bloods were actually mixed, Chachamim only argue when they were not mixed.
(e) (Abaye and Reish Lakish): Chachamim forbid only regarding the first Matanos of Chatas and Olah, but all agree that if Shirayim of Chatas were mixed with Dam Olah we offer it, for they are put in the same place (below).
(f) (Rav Yosef): No - Shirayim must be poured onto the Yesod (but Dam Olah is thrown against the (vertical) edge of the Mizbe'ach!
(g) (R. Yochanan): R. Eliezer and Chachamim also argue about Shirayim of Chatas mixed with Dam Olah.
(h) Question (Rav Huna bar Yehudah - Beraisa): (Regarding Bechor it says) "Kodesh Hem" - if it was mixed with other Korbanos, all are offered.
1. Suggestion: This refers to Shirayim of Bechor mixed with Dam Olah, for they are put in the same place.
(i) Answer: No, it refers to Dam Bechor mixed with Dam Olah, neither of which has yet been offered.
2) "OLIM" CANNOT BE "MEVATEL" EACH OTHER
(a) Question: Presumably, this teaches that Olim (Korbanos offered on the Mizbe'ach) do not Mevatel each other - but we already learn this from "V'Lakach mi'Dam ha'Par umi'Dam ha'Sa'ir"!
(b) Answer: Tana'im argue about which verse we learn from.
(c) Question (Rava - Beraisa): Question: "V'Hikrivu Benei Aharon ha'Kohanim Es ha'Dam...v'Zorku Es ha'Dam" - why does it say "Dam" twice?
1. Answer (according to Rashi, Shitah Mekubetzes): One "Dam" teaches that we can offer Dam Olah mixed with blood of its Temurah (or of another Olah or of Chulin), for even if the animals became mixed while alive, they would have been offered (if Semichah is not a problem, e.g. they are of the same owner or of women).
2. Question: What is the source to permit (offering it) it was mixed with blood of Todah or Shelamim (had the animals become mixed up while alive, we would not offer them, for then the meat would go to waste (lest it is the Olah) and/or Semichah cannot be done)?
3. Answer: This is permitted, since these may be brought voluntarily, like Olah.
4. Question: What is the source to permit if it was mixed with Dam Asham?
5. Answer: This is permitted, since it requires four Matanos of blood (below), like Olah.
6. Question: What is the source to permit if it was mixed with Dam Bechor, Ma'aser or Pesach?
7. Answer: We learn this from the second "Dam".
8. Summation of question - suggestion: The Beraisa permits when Shirei Dam Olah were mixed with Dam Bechor (or Ma'aser or Pesach), for Shirayim are put in the same place as lower blood.
(d) Answer: No, the case is, before any Matanos were done, Dam Olah was mixed with Dam Bechor.
(e) Question: If so, the only Chidush is that Olim do not Mevatel each other - but we already learn this from "Mi'Dam ha'Par umi'Dam ha'Sa'ir" (or "Kodesh Hem")!
(f) Answer: This Tana argues with the others, he learns from "Dam...Dam".
(g) Question: We understand why two (of the three) Tana'im do not learn from "V'Lakach mi'Dam ha'Par umi'Dam ha'Sa'ir" - they explain, the bloods are not mixed, each is put by itself on the Keranos.
1. We understand why two of the Tana'im do not learn from "Dam...Dam" - they hold that these words are not extra to be expounded;
2. Buy why do two Tana'im not learn from "Kodesh Hem"?
(h) Answer: They expound (regarding Bechoros) "Kodesh *Hem*", but their Temuros are not (fully) Kodesh and are not offered.
(i) Question: One Tana learns from "Kodesh Hem" - what is his source for the above law?
(j) Answer: He learns from "Im Shor Im Seh la'Sh-m *Hu*" - it is offered, its Temurah is not offered.
(k) Question (Beraisa): If the Kohen (without asking) threw some of the blood above, all agree that he should throw below, he fulfills his obligation with both bloods.
1. Suggestion: The case is, Dam Chatas was mixed with Dam Olah;
2. After the Matanos above, Shirayim of Chatas must be put - all agree that we put below, for Shirayim are put in the same place as Dam Olah!
(l) Answer (R. Yitzchak bar Yosef): The case is, Dam Chatas (before any Matanos were done) was mixed with Shirayim (after Matanos above, both bloods should be put below).
(m) Abaye: Why didn't you answer that Shirayim were mixed with Shirayim?
1. Perhaps you wanted to teach that even according to the opinion that Shirayim are Me'akev, if some of them are lacking, this is not Me'akev!
(n) Question (Rava Tosfah): But we established the Beraisa when the upper blood was the majority, and he put above more than the amount of lower blood!
(o) Answer (Ravina): At first we said that to answer for Rav Ashi, who says that R. Eliezer holds Ein Bilah;
1. We concluded that the Beraisa discusses buckets that became mixed.
3) INNER AND OUTER BLOODS THAT BECAME MIXED
(a) (Mishnah): If inner blood (that should be Nizrak inside the Heichal) was mixed with outer blood (that should be Nizrak on the outer Mizbe'ach), the mixture is spilled to the Amah;
(b) If the blood was Nizrak outside and then inside, both Zerikos are Kosher;
(c) R. Akiva says, if the blood was Nizrak inside and then outside, (the inner Zerikah is Kosher,) it (the outer Zerikah) is Pasul;
(d) Chachamim are Machshir (both);
1. R. Akiva is Posel blood of any Korban that entered the Heichal,
2. Chachamim say, only Dam Chatas becomes Pasul;
3. R. Eliezer says, even Dam Asham becomes Pasul - "Ka'Chatas Ka'Asham".
(e) (Gemara) Question: Why doesn't R. Eliezer argue also in this Mishnah (and permit Zerikah outside and then inside, viewing the blood in the wrong place like water)?
(f) Answer: Just like l'Chatchilah upper blood must be put before lower blood, inner blood must be put before outer blood.