Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups
Kitzurdaf

Back

03-31-2011
Title:
Menachos 25 -

Message:
1) "RITZUY TZITZ"

(a) (Mishnah): If the Kometz became Tamei and it was offered, the Tzitz is Meratzeh (is Machshir the Minchah and permits the Shirayim to be eaten);
(b) If the Kometz left the Azarah and was offered, the Tzitz is not Meratzeh;
1. The Tzitz is Meratzeh for Tum'ah, not for Yotzei.
(c) (Gemara - Beraisa) Question: "V'Nasa Aharon Es Avon ha'Kodoshim" - what sin does (the Tzitz) bear?
1. It cannot be Pigul, we learn that from "Lo Yechashev"! (Here (and in some other places) Chachamim call Chutz li'Mkomo 'Pigul', even though one is not Chayav Kares for eating it.)
2. It cannot be Nosar, we learn that from "Lo Yeratzeh"! (Here, this refers to what the Torah calls Pigul, i.e. a Korban offered with intention to *eat it when it is* Nosar, i.e. Chutz li'Zmano,),
(d) Answer: It bears the sin of Tum'ah, for Tum'ah is wholly permitted to the Tzibur.
(e) Question (R. Zeira): Why not say that it bears the sin of Yotzei, for this is wholly permitted on a Bamah!
(f) Answer (Abaye): "L'Ratzon Lahem Lifnei Hash-m" - the Tzitz is Meratzeh for a sin in front of Hash-m, Yotzei is not in front of Hash-m.
(g) Question (R. Ila'a): Why not say that it bears the sin of Smol (Avodah using the left hand), for this is wholly permitted on Yom Kipur (the Kohen Gadol carries the spoon with incense in his left hand)!
(h) Answer #1 (Abaye): It says "Avon" - the Tzitz is Meratzeh for something that is always forbidden, but is Nidcheh (permitted, b'Diavad) to the Tzibur - Smol is used l'Chatchilah on Yom Kipur.
(i) Answer #2 (Rav Ashi): The Tzitz bears "Avon ha'Kodoshim", not sin of the Makdishim (people, who did the Avodah).
(j) Question (R. Simi): Why not say that it bears the sin of a (Korban) Ba'al Mum, for this is wholly permitted in birds!
1. Zevachim must be unblemished and (sometimes) must be male, in birds we are never concerned for these.
(k) Answer (Rav Ashi): "(A Ba'al Mum) Lo Yeratzeh" - it will not be accepted.
2) WHEN THE "TZITZ" IS NOT "MERATZEH"
(a) (Beraisa #1): If the blood became Tamei and Zerikah was done:
1. If it was b'Shogeg, it is Meratzeh; if b'Mezid, Lo Hurtzeh.
2. This applies to a Korban Yachid - a Korban Tzibur is Meratzeh even b'Mezid.
3. The Korban of a Nochri is not Meratzeh even b'Shogeg.
25b---------------------------------------25b

(b) Contradiction (Beraisa #2): The Tzitz is Meratzeh for (Tum'ah of) blood, meat and Chelev that became Tamei, whether b'Shogeg or b'Mezid or b'Ones, for a Korban Yachid or a Korban Tzibur.
(c) Answer #1 (Rav Yosef): Our Beraisa is like Chachamim, that Beraisa is R. Yosi:
1. (Beraisa): It is forbidden to separate Tamei produce to be Terumah on (to exempt) Tahor produce;
i. If this was done b'Shogeg, it becomes Terumah; if it was done b'Mezid, it is not Terumah;
2. R. Yosi says, whether it was done b'Shogeg or b'Mezid, it becomes Terumah.
(d) Objection: Granted, R. Yosi does not fine one who separated Tamei Terumah - but he does not hold that the Tzitz is Meratzeh for (Tamei) food (e.g. to consider it is as if had Sha'as ha'Kosher, to Mechayev eating it b'Tum'ah)!
1. (Beraisa - R. Eliezer): The Tzitz is Meratzeh for food;
2. R. Yosi says, it is not Meratzeh for food.
(e) Answer: We must switch the opinions of R. Eliezer and R. Yosi.
(f) Objection (Rav Sheshes): We cannot switch the opinions!
1. (Beraisa) Suggestion: Perhaps if a Tamei person ate Tamei Kodshim *before Zerikah* he is liable!
2. Rejection: "Kol Tahor Yochal Basar" - one is liable for eating Kodesh meat b'Tum'ah only if it was once permitted to Tahor people.
3. Suggestion: Perhaps one is liable for eating (b'Tum'ah) Kodshim that is (at the time) permitted to Tehorim - this would exclude Lan and Yotzei!
4. Rejection: "Asher la'Sh-m" includes these.
5. Suggestion: Perhaps we include Pigul and Nosar!
i. Objection: Nosar is Lan, we already included it!
6. Correction: Rather, perhaps we include Pigul, just like Nosar!
7. Rejection: "Mi'Zevach ha'Shelamim" excludes (Pigul).
8. Question: (The verses that include and exclude do not specify what to include or exclude -) why do we include Lan and Nosar, and exclude Pigul?
9. Answer: We include Lan and Nosar, for they had Sha'as ha'Kosher (they were once permitted) - Pigul never had Sha'as ha'Kosher.
10. Question: Why is a Tamei liable for eating *after Zerikah* Kodesh that became Tamei before Zerikah (it was never permitted to Tehorim!)
11. Answer: The Tzitz is Meratzeh (it is as if the meat was once permitted);
i. This is only if the meat became Tamei, not if it was Yotzei.
12. Question: Which Tana holds that Zerikah does not help for Yotzei (it is as if there was no Sha'as ha'Kosher)?
13. Answer: It is R. Eliezer.
14. Culmination of objection: This Beraisa is R. Eliezer, and it says that the Tzitz is Meratzeh for food!
(g) Resolution #2 (to contradiction (b) - Rav Chisda): Beraisa #1 is Chachamim, Beraisa #2 is R. Eliezer.
(h) Question: Granted, R. Eliezer says that the Tzitz is Meratzeh for food - this does not show that he does not make a fine that it is not Meratzeh for Mezid in a Korban Yachid!
(i) Answer: Indeed, we know that he says this, just like R. Yosi does!
1. (Beraisa - R. Eliezer): Whether it was done b'Shogeg or b'Mezid, it becomes Terumah.
(j) Question: Granted, R. Eliezer does not fine regarding Terumah - but Kodshim are more stringent, perhaps he fines regarding Kodshim!
(k) Answer: If so, Beraisa #2 is unlike any Tana we know (we do not widen the argument and assume that it is like a Tana whose opinion we never heard elsewhere unless we are forced to!)
(l) Resolution #3 (to contradiction (b) - Ravina): Beraisa #2 discusses how it became Tamei (the Tzitz is Meratzeh even for Mezid), Beraisa #1 discusses the intent during Zerikah (there is Ritzuy for a Korban Yachid only if it was Shogeg).
(m) Resolution #4 (Rav Shila): Beraisa #1 discusses how it became Tamei, Beraisa #2 discusses the intent during Zerikah.
(n) Question (against Rav Shila - Beraisa #2): The Tzitz is Meratzeh for blood, meat and Chelev that became Tamei, whether b'Shogeg or b'Mezid...
(o) Answer: It means, if they became Tamei b'Shogeg, the Tzitz is Meratzeh whether the Zerikah was b'Shogeg or b'Mezid...
(p) Question (against Rav Shila - Beraisa #1): If the blood became Tamei and Zerikah was done - if it was b'Shogeg, it is Meratzeh; if b'Mezid, Lo Hurtzeh.
(q) Answer: It means, if the blood became Tamei and Zerikah was done, whether Zerikah was b'Shogeg or b'Mezid:
1. If it became Tamei b'Shogeg the Tzitz is Meratzeh; if b'Mezid, Lo Hurtzeh.

Back