Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups




(a) (R. Yochanan): All agree that if the bread and lambs were Huzkeku (committed) to (be brought with) each other, they are Me'akev each other;
1. Slaughter is Zokek.
(b) (Ula): Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael were unsure whether or not Tenufah is Zokek.
1. Question: We should be able to answer this from R. Yochanan, who said that slaughter is Zokek (implying that Tenufah, which is before slaughter, is not!)
2. Answer: It is doubtful what R. Yochanan himself held:
i. Perhaps he was sure that slaughter is Zokek, and Tenufah is not;
ii. Or, perhaps he was sure that slaughter is Zokek, and was unsure about Tenufah - he only said the law he was sure about.
(c) This question is not resolved.
(d) Question (R. Yehudah ben Chanina): "Kodesh Yihyu la'Sh-m la'Kohen" is written after Tenufah, yet they argue (each says that one is not Me'akev the other - this resolves the question, Tenufah is not Zokek!)
1. Counter-question (Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua): The verse is written after slaughter (only then the lambs belong to the Kohen), yet they argue (even though slaughter is Zokek!)
2. Answer: You must say, the verse refers to (the lambs or bread, whichever is Me'akev) before slaughter, and says that they *will be* to the Kohen (after slaughter);
(e) Answer: Likewise, the verse refers to (whichever is Me'akev) before Tenufah, and says that they *will be* to the Kohen.
(f) Question: Is it really true that slaughter is Zokek?!
1. Question (Beraisa): If (some) loaves of Lachmei Todah became Chaser before slaughter (of the Todah), new loaves are brought, the Todah is slaughtered (and it is fully Kosher);
2. If they became Chaser after slaughter (but before Zerikah), Zerikah is done (l'Shem Shelamim), the Todah is Kosher, its meat is eaten, the owner did not fulfill his vow (to bring a Todah), (all of) the bread is forbidden;
3. If they were broken after Zerikah, (the Todah is fully Kosher, just) Terumah (the Kohen's portion, one loaf each kind) must be taken from full loaves to exempt (all the others, including) the broken ones,
4. If loaves left Yerushalayim before slaughter, they are returned, the Todah is slaughtered;
5. If they left after slaughter, Zerikah is done, the Todah is Kosher, the meat is eaten, the vow was not fulfilled, the bread is forbidden;
6. If they left after Zerikah, Terumah must be taken from bread that did not leave to exempt (all the bread, including) the bread that left.
7. If loaves became Teme'im before slaughter, more loaves are brought, the Todah is slaughtered;
8. If they became Teme'im after slaughter, Zerikah is done, the Todah is Kosher, the meat is eaten; the vow *was* fulfilled because the Tzitz is Meratzeh , but the bread is forbidden;
9. If they became Teme'im after Zerikah, Terumah must be taken from Tahor bread to exempt (all, including) the Tamei.
10. Summation of question: If slaughter is Zokek, when loaves were broken (or left or Nitma'u) after slaughter, also the Todah should become Pasul!
(g) Answer: Todah is different, for the Torah calls it 'Shelamim' - just as Shelamim is brought without bread, Todah may be brought (l'Shem Shelamim) without bread.
(h) (R. Yirmeyah): If Tenufah is Zokek:

1. If (after Tenufah) Shtei ha'Lechem were lost (or Nifsalim), the lambs are Nifsalim; if the lambs were lost, the bread is Nifsal;
(i) Question: If Tenufah is not Zokek:
1. If (after Tenufah with the lambs) the bread was lost and new bread was brought, does it require Tenufah with the lambs?
2. There is no question if the lambs were lost, surely Tenufah is required (for they permit the bread);
3. Even when the bread was lost, there is no question according to Ben Nanas, who says that the lambs are primary (surely, another Tenufah is not required);
4. The question is according to R. Akiva, who says that the bread is primary:
i. Since the bread is primary, Tenufah is required;
ii. Or, since the lambs permit the bread, no other Tenufah is required?
(j) This question is not resolved.
(a) Question (Abaye): What is the difference between the two lambs, which are Mekadesh the bread and are Me'akev it, and the seven lambs, which are neither Mekadesh the bread nor Me'akev it?
(b) Answer #1 (Rava): The bread is waved (Tenufah) with the two lambs, not with the seven.
(c) Rejection: Lachmei Todah are not waved with the Todah, yet the Todah is Mekadesh the bread and is Me'akev it!
(d) Answer #2: We learn from Todah - it is a Shelamim, it is Mekadesh and Me'akev the bread - likewise, only Shelamim (the two lambs) are Mekadesh and Me'akev the bread (but the seven lambs, Olos, are not.)
(e) Rejection: We cannot learn from Lachmei Todah, for no other Korban accompanies them - other Korbanos are brought with Shtei ha'Lechem, perhaps all are Mekadesh it!
(f) Answer #3: We learn from Lachmei Nazir - three Korbanos accompany them, yet only Ayil Nazir, the Shelamim, is Mekadesh the bread - likewise, only the two lambs are Mekadesh Shtei ha'Lechem!
(g) Question: What is the source that only Ayil Nazir is Mekadesh the bread?
(h) Answer (Beraisa): "V'Es ha'Ayil Ya'aseh Zevach Shelamim la'Sh-m Al Sal ha'Matzos" - this teaches that the bread is a Chovah of the ram, and slaughter of the ram is Mekadesh it;
1. Therefore, if the ram was slaughtered Lo Lishmah, the bread is not Mekudash.
(a) (Beraisa): If Shtei ha'Lechem was brought by itself, we wait for Ibur Tzurah (for it to become Nifsal on account of Linah.)
(b) Question: Either way you say, this is difficult!
1. If Shtei ha'Lechem brought by itself may be eaten, it should be eaten;
2. If it must be burned, it should be burned right away, why must we wait for Ibur Tzurah?!
(c) Answer #1 (Rabah): Mid'Oraisa, it may be eaten - Chachamim decreed not to eat it, lest the next year the two lambs will be brought, and Kohanim will eat the bread before offering the lambs (because they recall that the previous year the bread did not need lambs to permit it - they will not realize that when the lambs are brought, the lambs permit it.)
(d) Support (Rabah, for himself - Mishnah - R. Yehudah): If a Kohen is Shokel (gives a half-Shekel), he does not transgress;
1. R. Yochanan ben Zakai: Rather, a Kohen that does not Shokel transgresses!
2. Kohanim (incorrectly) expound the following, to their advantage:
i. "V'Chol Minchas Kohen Kalil Tihyeh Lo Se'achel"- if Kohanim would Shokel, they would be (joint) owners of (all Korbanos Tzibur, including) the Omer, Lechem ha'Panim and Shtei ha'Lechem, they could not be eaten!
3. Question: What is the case of Shtei ha'Lechem?
i. If it was brought with the two lambs, even if it belongs (also) to Kohanim it may be eaten, just like a Kohen who brings Lachmei Todah with a Todah!
4. Answer #1: Rather, it was brought without the lambs, and the Mishnah says that it may be eaten!
(e) Rejection (and Answer #2 to Question (1) - Abaye): Really, it was brought with the lambs;
1. We cannot learn from Todah, for Lachmei Todah are not called 'Minchah' (therefore, "V'Chol Minchas Kohen..." does not apply to it), but Shtei ha'Lechem is called Minchah - "B'Hakrivchem Minchah Chadashah la'Sh-m".
(f) Answer #2 (to Question (j) - Rav Yosef): Really, it must be burned;
1. It may not be burned right away, because we do not burn Kodshim on Yom Tov.
(g) Objection (Abaye): That Halachah (we do not burn Kodshim on Yom Tov) refers to Kodshim that (b'Diavad) became Pesulim - Shtei ha'Lechem brought by itself should be burned, this may be done on Yom Tov, like the burning of the bull and ram of Yom Kipur!
(h) Answer #3 (Rav Yosef): (It must be burned;) Chachamim decreed not to burn it right away, perhaps lambs will be found later in the day (after offering them, the bread may be eaten.)
(i) Question (Abaye): This explains why they should not be burned as long as it would be permitted to offer the two lambs (Rashi - until the afternoon Tamid; Tosfos - until night. (Presumably, since blood is Nifsal at Shki'ah, even slightly before this; it is clear that there is not time to offer the lambs.))
(j) Answer (Rav Yosef): Indeed, when the Mishnah says Ibur Tzurah, it refers to this time.
(k) Defense of Answer #1 (Rava): Really, it may be eaten; Chachamim decreed, lest Kohanim err the next year when lambs will be brought;
1. This is like Rabah, but I (Rava) learn from a different source:
2. "Mi'Moshvoseichem Tavi'u Lechem Tenufah" - just as Bikurim are brought by themselves, and are eaten, Shtei ha'Lechem may be brought by themselves, and are eaten.