Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups


Menachos 87 - INFERIOR WINES


(a) (Continuation of Mishnah): We do not use wine from the top of the barrel, for it contains mold, nor from the bottom, which has dregs, only from (a spout in) the middle of the middle third.
(b) Question: How do we check (which wine is coming out)?
(c) Answer: The Gizbar sits with a stick in his hand. When the wine coming out turns white (this is on account of dregs), the Gizbar raps with his stick (Rambam - pushing away the one collecting it; Rashi - on the barrel, to show that no more should be taken.)
(d) R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah says, wine with mold is Pasul.
(e) (The source for all the Pesulim of our Perek is) "Temimim Yihyu Lachem u'Minchasam...Temimim Yihyu Lachem v'Niskeihem" (Rashash, based on Rambam (85A). Rashi - this is R. Yosi's source to Posel moldy wine.)
(f) (Gemara - Mishnah): We do not bring sweet, smoked or cooked wine; if it was brought, it is Pasul;
(g) Contradiction: The Mishnah is Machshir Halistiyon b'Diavad, this is also sweet!
(h) Answer #1 (Ravina): Really, the two clauses go together (we do not bring from Halistiyon because we do not bring sweet wine; if it was brought, it is Pasul);
(i) Answer #2 (Rav Ashi): Halistiyon is from grapes stricken by the sun, it is not detestable; the Mishnah is Posel wine that is sweet because the grapes themselves are inferior, this is detestable.
(j) (Mishnah - Rebbi): We do not bring old wine; Chachamim permit this.
(k) Question: What is Rebbi's reason?
(l) Answer #1 (Chizkiyah): "La'Keves Yayin" - just like lambs (for Musafim) must be in their first year, also the wine for Nesachim!
(m) Objection: If so, just like lambs in their second year are Pesulim (for Musafim), also wine!
1. Suggestion: Perhaps this is true!
2. Rejection (Beraisa): We do not bring wine in its second year, if it was brought it is Kosher.
i. This is like Rebbi, who forbids bringing it, and the Beraisa is Machshir b'Diavad!
(n) Answer #2 (Rava): Rebbi learns from "Al Tereh Yayin Ki Yis'adam" (wine should be red - after one year, the redness fades.)
(o) (Mishnah): We do not use vines supported on poles...(only from worked vineyards.)
(p) (Beraisa): The vineyards must be worked (to dig around the vines) twice a year.
(q) Rav Yosef had a small orchard; he dug around the vines twice a year, it produced (strong) wine fitting to be diluted with twice the usual amount of water (six times its own volume, instead of three.)
(a) (Mishnah): We do not gather the wine in large barrels (rather, in small barrels.)
(b) (Beraisa): The small barrels are medium-size flasks of Lud.
(c) Version #1 (our text): We do not rest two barrels together (lest one will spoil and cause the other to spoil), rather, individually.
(d) Version #2 (Rambam): We stack barrels in threes (Ri Korkus - side by side; Lechem Mishnah - one on top of the other), not in stacks of one or two (we take from the middle barrel, it is less exposed, it is preserved best.
(e) (Mishnah): How do we check? The Gizbar sits with a stick, when the wine coming out turns white, he raps his stick.
(f) (Beraisa): When wine white from dregs comes out, he raps.
(g) Question: Why doesn't he tell them to stop taking wine?
(h) Answer: This supports R. Yochanan:
1. (R. Yochanan): Just like speech is good for spices (for the Ketores), it is bad for wine.
(i) (Mishnah - R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah): Wine...
(j) Question (Rava): If one was Makdish (any) Pasul wine for Nesachim, is he lashed for being Makdish a Ba'al Mum?
1. Since it is Pasul, this is like being Makdish a Ba'al Mum;
2. Or, perhaps the Lav only applies to animals.
(k) This question is not resolved.
(l) (Beraisa): The best rams come from Mo'av, the best lambs come from Chevron, the best calves come from Sharon, the best birds (for Korbanos, Torim and Benei Yonah) come from Har Ha'Melech;
(m) R. Yehudah says, we bring lambs that are as wide as their height. (Ben Yehoyada - this is (deformed like) a midget, it is Pasul! Rather, he means, their obesity causes them to be taller than usual.)
(n) (Rabah bar Rav Shila): He learns from "Yir'eh Miknecha...Kar Nirchav".
(a) Question: "(Hash-m appointed angels to guard Yerushalayim)...Tamid Lo Yecheshu (they are never silent)" - what do they say?
(b) Answer #1 (Rabah bar Rav Shila): "Ata Sakum Terachem Tziyon".
(c) Answer #2 (Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak): "Bone Yerushalayim Hash-m".
(d) Question: What did they say before the Churban?
(e) Answer (Rabah bar Rav Shila): "Ki Vachar Hash-m b'Tziyon Ivah l'Moshav Lo".

(a) (Mishnah): There were two dry measures in the Mikdash, Isaron and half-Isaron;
(b) R. Meir says, there were two one-Isaron measures and and a half-Isaron measure;
(c) The Isaron was used to measure the Soles for all Menachos;
1. We do not use a three-Isaron measure for (Minchas Nesachim of) a bull, nor a two-Isaron measure for a ram, rather, we repeatedly use the Isaron.
(d) The half-Isaron is used to measure the Chavitim, half (of the Isaron) is brought in the morning, half in the afternoon.
(e) (Gemara - Beraisa - R. Meir): "Isaron Isaron la'Keves ha'Echad" - this teaches that there were two one-Isaron measures;
1. One of them held an Isaron Machuk (when it was full and any overflow was wiped away), the other held an Isaron Gadush (heaping).
2. The Gadush Isaron was used for all Menachos, except for Chavitim, for which the Machuk was used.

(f) Chachamim say, there was only one Isaron - "V'Isaron Echad la'Keves ha'Echad";
1. Question: If so, what do we learn from "Isaron Isaron"?
2. Answer: This teaches that there is also a half-Isaron.
(g) Question: What is R. Meir's source for a half-Isaron?
(h) Answer: He learns from the first 'Vov' in "*V*'Isaron";
1. Chachamim do not expound this 'Vov'.
(i) Question: How does R. Meir expound "V'Isaron Echad la'Keves ha'Echad"?
(j) Answer: This teaches that we do not use a three-Isaron measure for a bull, nor a two-Isaron measure for a ram;
(k) Chachamim learn this from a dot over a 'Vov':
1. (Beraisa - R. Yosi): The dot over the second 'Vov' in 'v'Isaron' in the Musaf of the first day of Sukos teaches that we do not use a three-Isaron measure for a bull, nor a two-Isaron measure for a ram.
2. R. Meir does not expound the dot.
(l) (Mishnah): The half-Isaron is used to measure the Chavitim...
(m) Question: This connotes that he measures out a half-Isaron in his house (as opposed to bringing a full Isaron to the Azarah and dividing it);
(n) Contradiction (Mishnah): Chavitim are not brought (to the Mikdash) half at a time - rather, he brings a full Isaron (of flour) and divides it.
(o) Answer (Rav Sheshes): The Mishnah means, the half-Isaron is used to divide the Chavitim.
(p) Question (Rami bar Chama): According to R. Meir, was the half-Isaron Machuk or Gadush?
1. Rav Chisda: Why don't you ask according to Chachamim?
2. Rami bar Chama: According to Chachamim, I ask (even) about the Isaron, if it was Machuk or Gadush!
(q) Answer (Rav Chisda): We can learn about R. Meir from (an explicit teaching of) R. Meir, from R. Meir we learn to Chachamim:
1. R. Meir says that the Machuk Isaron was for Chavitim - the half-Isaron is for Chavitim, presumably it is also Machuk;
2. Just like R. Meir requires both measures Mechukos (for Chavitim), also Chachamim (since there is only one measure of each, they are Mechukos.)
(r) Question (Rami bar Chama): How do we divide Chavitim in half - by hand, or with a Kli?
(s) Answer (Rav Chisda): Surely, by hand - if a Kli is required (for exactness), a scale would be required (it is most exact!)
1. Suggestion: Perhaps a scale is required!
2. Rejection: One of the curses is that people (will use ovens together to save fuel, the bread will break inside, they) will weigh the (pieces of) bread with a scale (to ensure that each receives the proper amount), it is not proper to do so.
(a) Question (Rami bar Chama): If Kematzim (of Levonah, not in Bazichim; alternatively - of Menachos) were placed in the Godesh of the Shulchan (its airspace, i.e. between loaves of Lechem ha'Panim; alternatively - directly on the Shulchan, even though it is not b'Soch (in the interior of) the Shulchan), is this Mekadesh them?
1. Since its Godesh is Mekadesh Lechem ha'Panim, it is also Mekadesh Kematzim;
2. Or, perhaps it is only Mekadesh what should be placed on it?
(b) Answer (Rav Chisda): It is not Mekadesh them.
(c) (The Shulchan is one Amah wide, Tana'im argue whether this Amah is five or six Tefachim; each loaf of Lechem ha'Panim is 10 Tefachim long, its length is centered along the width of the Shulchan, the excess in each direction is folded up.)
(d) Question: But R. Yochanan taught, according to the (first) opinion that the last two and a half Tefachim (on each end of) each loaf is folded up, the Shulchan is Mekadesh 15 Tefachim above its surface (the height of the six loaves in each pile); according to the opinion that the ends of each loaf are folded up two Tefachim, it is Mekadesh 12 Tefachim above its surface! (Rashi Kesav Yad - R. Yochanan need not teach that it is Mekadesh the bread, surely he teaches that it is Mekadesh things not fitting for it!)
(e) Answer (Rav Chisda): It is not Mekadesh them to be offered (as if they were placed in a Bezech or Kli Shares), it is Mekadesh them to be Nifsalim (through a Tevul Yom or through Linah; alternatively, if a Zar put them there, a Kohen cannot complete the Avodah even if they are returned to the Minchah.)
(a) (Mishnah): There were seven wet measures in the Mikdash - Hin (12 Lugim), half-Hin, third-Hin, quarter-Hin, Log, half-Log, Revi'is (quarter-Log);
(b) R. Eliezer bar R. Tzadok says, there were notches in the Hin showing the level (of a half, third or quarter-Hin) needed for (oil or wine for) a bull, ram or lamb. (Tosfos, based on Tosefta - this eliminated the need for three Kelim, there were only four; Rashi - there were notches for all the measures, there was only one Kli.)
(c) R. Shimon says, there was not a Hin, there is no need for it!
1. Rather, there was a measure of a Log and a half, to measure the oil needed for the half of the Chavitim offered in the morning, and for the half offered in the afternoon.