Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups
Kitzurdaf

Back

08-02-2011
Title:
Menachos 101 - WHICH

Message:
1) WHICH "KODSHIM" MAY BE REDEEMED?

(a) Question: Where is a Ba'al Mum called 'Tamei'?
(b) Answer (Beraisa): "V'Im Kol *Behemah Te'meah* Asher Lo Yakrivu Mimenu Korban la'Sh-m" - this refers to a Ba'al Mum that was redeemed.
1. Suggestion: Perhaps it truly refers to a Tamei (species of) Behemah!
2. Rejection: "V'Im ba'Behemah ha'Te'meah u'Fadah v'Erkecha" discusses a Tamei Behemah - "V'Im Kol Behemah Te'meah" must refer to a Ba'al Mum that was redeemed.
(c) Suggestion: Perhaps a Zevach may be redeemed if it has a Mum Over (temporary Mum!)
(d) Rejection: "Asher Lo Yakrivu Mimenu Korban la'Sh-m" - something that can never be offered, this excludes a Ba'al Mum Over, for it may be offered later.
(e) Question (against Shmuel - Rav Huna bar Mano'ach - Mishnah): Birds, wood, Levonah and Klei Shares cannot be redeemed [(even) after becoming Tamei],.for redemption applies only to animals.
1. Question: Granted, birds have Kedushas ha'Guf, they may not be redeemed - but one should be able to redeem wood, Levonah and Klei Shares (since they themselves are not offered, they are merely Hechsher Avodah!)
2. Answer: We must say, they cannot be redeemed because (generally) Tahor Kodshim cannot be redeemed, and these are considered Tehorim even when they are (seemingly) Teme'im:
i. Wood and Levonah are not foods, they are Tamei only on account of Chibas ha'Kodesh (a stringency of Kodshim) - before the wood is smoothed out to be fit for logs, and before the Levonah is Hukdash in a Kli, they are not Mekabel Tum'ah;
ii. Even a Tamei Kli is considered Tahor, because it can be immersed (we do not make earthenware Klei Shares (which cannot be immersed).)
(f) Answer: Really, normally, Tahor Kodshim can be redeemed - wood, Levonah and Klei Shares are exceptions, because they are not common, Chachamim decreed not to redeem them when they are Tehorim.
(g) Question: Granted, Levonah and Klei Shares are not common - however, wood is readily available!
(h) Answer: A Mishnah teaches that if a worm is found in a log, it is Pasul for the Ma'arachah - therefore, Kosher wood is rare.
(i) (Rav Papa): Had Shmuel heard the following Beraisa, he would have retracted (for it refutes him!)
1. (Beraisa): If one is Matfis Temimim (Makdish unblemished animals) to Bedek ha'Bayis, they are redeemed only in order to offer them;
2. Anything (Hukdash and) Kosher for the Mizbe'ach must be offered, it can never be redeemed.
3. Conclusion: Even though it is only Kedushas Damim, they cannot be redeemed because they are Tehorim!
(j) Rejection: Shmuel would not retract on account of the Beraisa;
1. We said that Chachamim decreed not to redeem things that are rare when they are Tehorim - also unblemished Behemos are rare, for even a film in the eye is a Mum!
(k) (Rav Kahana): All Menachos can be redeemed if they are Teme'im, not if they are Tehorim.
(l) Version #1: R. Oshaya agrees with Rav Kahana.
(m) Version #2 - (R. Oshiya): They can be redeemed even if they are Tehorim.
(n) Version #1 - Rashi - (R. Elazar): All can be redeemed only if they are Teme'im, except for Minchas Chotei, for it says "Me'Chataso" and "Al Chataso", it may be redeemed when Tahor. (The verses discuss Oleh v'Yored (a rich person brings a Seh Chatas, an Oni brings birds or flour.) "Me'Chataso" teaches that if a rich person was Makdish money for a Seh, and then became poor, he may use some of it to buy birds, the rest is Chulin; "Al Chataso" teaches that if an Oni was Makdish money for birds, and then became rich, he may add money to it to buy a Seh.)
(o) Version #2 - R. Gershom - (R. Elazar): All can be redeemed if and only if they are Teme'im, except for Minchas Chotei, for it says "Al Chataso" instead of "Me'Chataso", to teach that its law is like Chatas (Behemah), which may not be redeemed even if it is a Ba'al Mum (which is called 'Tamei'.)
2) "TUM'AS OCHLIM" OF "ISUREI HANA'AH"
(a) (R. Oshiya citing R. Shimon): If one was Mefagel a Minchah, it does not receive Tum'as Ochlim.
1. (Beraisa): The following receive Tum'as Ochlim, even though they are Isurei Hana'ah (it is forbidden to benefit from them):
101b---------------------------------------101b

i. Orlah, Kilai ha'Kerem, Shor ha'Niskal (an ox sentenced to be stoned), Eglah Arufah, Tziporei Metzora (he brings birds to permit him to enter the city), a firstborn donkey, meat and milk.
ii. R. Shimon says, they do not receive Tum'as Ochlim.
2. R. Shimon agrees that meat and milk is Tamei (receives Tum'as Ochlim), for it had She'as ha'Kosher (it was once permitted to Yisrael, i.e. the moment they were mixed together, before they absorbed from each other.)
3. (Rav Asi): R. Shimon learns from "Mi'Kol ha'Ochel Asher Ye'achel" - something is considered food (regarding Tum'as Ochlim) if and only if it is permitted to feed it to others (Nochrim - i.e., one may benefit from it, even if a Yisrael may not eat it.)
4. Conclusion: A Pigul Minchah is Isurei Hana'ah, one may not feed it to others, therefore it is not Tamei.
(b) Question: Why does R. Shimon say that meat and milk is Tamei for it had She'as ha'Kosher - it suffices that one may feed it to others!
1. (Beraisa - R. Shimon ben Yehudah citing R. Shimon): It is forbidden to eat meat and milk, it is permitted to benefit from it - it says "Ki Am Kodesh Atah...Lo Sevashel Gedi ba'Chalev Imo", similar to "V'Anshei Kodesh Tihyun Li u'Vasar ba'Sadeh Treifah Lo Sochelu";
2. Just like one may benefit from a Treifah but not eat it, the same applies to meat and milk.
(c) Answer: R. Shimon gives a second reason why meat and milk is Tamei:
1. Firstly, it is Tamei because it is permitted to feed it to others;
2. Secondly, it is Tamei, for it was once permitted to Yisrael.
(d) Question (Beraisa - R. Shimon): Sometimes, Nosar receives Tum'as Ochlim, sometimes it does not:
1. If the time for eating passed and Zerikah was not done, it is Tahor; if Zerikah was done in the proper time, it is Tamei.
2. Pigul, whether of Kodshei ha'Kodoshim or Kodshei Kalim, is Tahor.
3. A Pigul Minchah is Tamei.
(e) Answer: The Beraisa discusses a Pigul Minchah that had She'as ha'Kosher, R. Oshaya discusses one that was never permitted.
(f) Question: What is the case of a Minchah that was never permitted? (Surely, before it was Hukdash it was permitted!)
(g) Answer: Attached wheat was Hukdash for the Minchah (it was forbidden the entire time it was fitting to receive Tum'as Ochlim, i.e. from when it was detached.)
3) POTENTIAL "SHE'AS HA'KOSHER"
(a) Question: It could have been redeemed before it was put in a Kli Shares (we should say that it had She'as ha'Kosher!)
(b) Answer - part 1: According to Version #1 (Amud A), R. Oshaya says that Tehorim may not be redeemed (therefore, there was no She'as ha'Kosher);
1. But according to Version #2, he says that even Tehorim may be redeemed - if so, there was She'as ha'Kosher!
(c) Answer - part 2: Since they were not redeemed, it is considered that there was not She'as ha'Kosher.
(d) Question: But R. Shimon holds that anything ready to be redeemed is considered as if it was redeemed!
1. (Beraisa - R. Shimon): Parah Adumah receives Tum'as Ochlim because there was a time when it was fitting to be eaten.
2. (Reish Lakish): R. Shimon holds that it may be redeemed even (after slaughter) at the woodpile (when it is about to be burned).
(e) Answer: He only considers Parah as if it was redeemed, for sometimes it is a Mitzvah to redeem it, e.g. if a nicer Parah was found;
1. It is never a Mitzvah to redeem Menachos (from the beginning, they are brought only from choice flour and oil.)
(f) Question: It is a Mitzvah to do Zerikah, yet the Beraisa teaches that if a Korban was Lan (left overnight) without Zerikah, it is not Tamei (we do not consider it as if Zerikah was done!)
(g) Answer #1: The case is, it was slaughtered so close to the end of the day that there was no time to do Zerikah. (Another answer will be given later.)
(h) Question: This implies that if it was slaughtered earlier so there was time to do Zerikah, Lan without Zerikah is Tamei;
1. If so, the Beraisa should have distinguished between more similar cases!
2. It should say, if a Korban was slaughtered without time left in the day to do Zerikah, it is Tahor; if time remained in the day for Zerikah, it is Tamei (and all the more so, if Zerikah was done!)
(i) Answer: Indeed, this is what the Beraisa means! If it was Lan and there was never time to do Zerikah, it is Tahor; if it was Lan and there was time for Zerikah, it is Tamei.

Back