Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups
Kitzurdaf

Back

08-02-2011
Title:
Chulin 14 - SLAUGHTER ON SHABBOS

Message:
1) SLAUGHTER ON SHABBOS

(a) (Mishnah): If one slaughters on Shabbos or Yom Kipur, even though he is Chayav Misah, the slaughter is Kosher.
(b) (Gemara - Rav): The meat may not be eaten that same day.
(c) (Rabanan): The Mishnah is like R. Yehudah.
(d) Question: Like which teaching of R. Yehudah is the Mishnah?
(e) Answer #1 (R. Aba): It is like his teaching that food for Shabbos must be prepared before Shabbos.
1. (Mishnah): We may cut gourds in front of animals, and a carcass in front of dogs (on Shabbos);
2. R. Yehudah says, if the animal was not dead when Shabbos began, we may not cut the carcass, since it was not prepared.
i. Since it was not prepared from before Shabbos, it is forbidden; also in our Mishnah, the animal was not prepared.
(f) Question (Abaye): The cases are different!
1. In that Mishnah, when Shabbos began, the animal was destined for people (to eat); after it died, it became destined for animal consumption;
2. In our Mishnah, the animal was destined for people when Shabbos began, and also after it was slaughtered!
(g) Answer (R. Aba): A live animal is not destined for people, rather to have offspring!
(h) Question (Abaye): If so, why does R. Yehudah permit slaughtering animals on Yom Tov?
(i) Correction (R. Aba): A live animal is destined for people or to have offspring.
1. If it is slaughtered, this clarifies that is was destined for people; if it is not slaughtered, this shows that it was standing to have offspring.
(j) Question: R. Yehudah does not rely on Breirah (to say that that later events can retroactively clarify things)!
1. Question: How do we know that R. Yehudah does not rely on Breirah?
2. Suggestion: We learn from the following Beraisa.
i. (Beraisa - R. Meir): If one buys wine from Kusim (and cannot separate Ma'aseros before drinking) he says 'The two Lugim that I will later separate (to be Terumah) are Terumah; the 10 Lugim (that I will separate) are Ma'aser Rishon; the nine Lugim are Ma'aser Sheni.' He (Rashi - redeems the Ma'aser Sheni and) may drink immediately;
ii. R. Yehudah, R. Yosi and R. Shimon say, he must separate the Ma'aseros before drinking.
14b---------------------------------------14b

3. Rejection: Normally, R. Yehudah relies on Breirah; there, there is a reason he does not rely on Breirah:
i. (Beraisa - R. Yehudah, R. Yosi and R. Shimon, to R. Meir): Aren't you concerned that the barrel will break (and he will never separate the Ma'aseros)?
ii. R. Meir: Until it breaks, we are not concerned.
4. Answer (to Question 1): Rather, we learn from the following Beraisa.
i. (Beraisa - Ayo): R. Yehudah says, a person cannot make an Eiruv in two places on condition (i.e. if a Chacham comes in the west, and another in the east, I will decide which Eiruv should be valid);
ii. He can say, if a Chacham comes in the west, my Eiruv is in the west; if he comes in the east, my Eiruv is in the east.
iii. Objection: He cannot make an Eiruv in two places on condition because we do not rely on Breirah - for the same reason, also the latter case (when one Chacham comes) should not work!
iv. (R. Yochanan): The case is, the Chachamim already came (before he stipulated; since it is already determined which Eiruv is valid (even though the man does not know which), this does not require Breirah.
2) THE MEAT IS "NOLAD"
(a) Answer #2 (to question 1:d - Rav Yosef): The Mishnah is like R. Yehudah's teaching regarding vessels.
1. (Mishnah): If a vessel may be moved on Shabbos, and a piece broke off, the piece may be moved only if it has a use;
i. For example, a piece of a kneading trough may be used to cover a barrel, a piece of glass may be used to cover a flask;
2. R. Yehudah says, the piece must have a use similar to its original usage.
i. For example, if a piece of a kneading trough can hold porridge, or a piece of glass can hold oil, they may be moved;
ii. If they are fitting only for unrelated uses, since they were not prepared for the new task when Shabbos began, they are Nolad, they may not be moved.
3. (Culmination of answer): The same applies to an animal slaughtered on Shabbos (it was not fit to be eaten when Shabbos began, it is Nolad)!
(b) Objection (Abaye): The cases are different! There, it was a vessel and now it is a fragment; here, it was a food, and is still a food, (Rashba - even when there is no permitted way to cause the change,) R. Yehudah permits this.
1. (Mishnah): We may not squeeze fruit on Shabbos to extract the juice; if the juice came out by itself, it is forbidden (on Shabbos);
2. R. Yehudah says, if the owner planned to eat the fruit, what flows from it is permitted; if he planned to extract the juice, what flows from it is forbidden.
(c) Answer: Shmuel taught, R. Yehudah admits regarding olives and grapes (that what flows from them is forbidden, even if he planned to eat them).
1. This is because people normally squeeze them, he is happy that liquid flows from them, (if we permit the juice) he may come to squeeze them (on Shabbos);
2. Similarly, a person plans to slaughter an animal, we should forbid the meat if it is slaughtered, so he will not come to slaughter!
(d) Rejection: Rav Yosef came to answer how Rav understands the Mishnah like R. Yehudah - Rav holds that R. Yehudah argues even regarding olives and grapes!
3) "MUKTZAH" BECAUSE OF A PROHIBITION
(a) Answer #3 (to question 1:d - Rav Sheshes brei d'Rav Idi): The Mishnah is like R. Yehudah's opinion regarding lamps.
1. (Beraisa - R. Yehudah): On Shabbos, we may move a new lamp (one that has not yet been used), but not a used lamp.
(b) Objection: This shows that R. Yehudah prohibits something that is Muktzah because a person is disgusted by it (a used earthenware lamp) - we have no source that he forbids something Muktzah (even when it has a permitted use) because it was forbidden to move it when Shabbos began!
(c) Answer: We do have a source!
1. (Mishnah - R. Yehudah): We may move any metal lamp (even used ones are not disgusting), except one that was lit when Shabbos began.
(d) Rejection: There, by lighting the lamp before Shabbos began, his actions prove that he does not intend to move it - we cannot learn to an animal that was slaughtered, he did nothing to forbid the animal!

Back