Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups
Kitzurdaf

Back

08-03-2011
Title:
Chulin 18 - CHECKING A KNIFE

Message:
1) CHECKING A KNIFE

(a) Question: What size nick disqualifies the Mizbe'ach?
(b) Answer: If a fingernail will get caught (if one runs his nail along the Mizbe'ach), this disqualifies it.
(c) Question (Beraisa - R. Shimon bar Yochai): A nick the size of a Tefach disqualifies the Mizbe'ach;
1. R. Eliezer ben Yakov says, the size of an olive.
(d) Answer: Regarding the plaster, a Tefach or olive sized nick disqualifies; regarding stones of the Mizbe'ach, a nick that catches a fingernail disqualifies it.
(e) (Rav Huna): If a slaughterer does not have the Chacham check his knife, we excommunicate him;
(f) (Rava): We remove him from his job, and announce that the meat he slaughtered is not Kosher.
1. They do not argue - Rav Huna discusses when the knife was found to be proper, Rava discusses when it was found to be blemished.
(g) (Ravina): If it was found to be blemished, we dirty the meat in the innards, so even a Nochri will not buy it (lest he resell it to a Yisrael who knows that a Yisrael slaughtered it).
(h) A certain slaughterer did not show his knife to Rava bar Chinena. Rava bar Chinena excommunicated him, removed him from his job, and announced that the meat he slaughtered is not Kosher.
1. Rava bar Chinena (to Mar Zutra and Rav Ashi): Look into the matter - he has children to feed!
2. Rav Ashi checked the knife; it was good. He allowed the slaughterer to resume his job.
3. Mar Zutra: Aren't you concerned for the honor of Rava bar Chinena, who deposed him?
4. Rav Ashi: He wanted us to reinstate him, if possible!
2) INVALID KNIVES
(a) (Rabah bar Rav Huna): One may slaughter with a detached tooth or fingernail.
(b) Question (Mishnah): ...Except for...teeth and a fingernail, for these choke.
(c) Answer: Regarding a tooth - Rabah permitted a single tooth, the Mishnah disqualifies two teeth;
1. Regarding a fingernail - Rabah permitted a detached nail, the Mishnah disqualifies an attached nail.
(d) (Mishnah): If one slaughters with a reaping scythe, only pushing it away from himself - Beis Shamai disqualify, Beis Hillel Machshir;
1. If he smoothed the teeth, it is like a normal knife.
(e) (Gemara - R. Chiya bar Aba): Beis Hillel only say that the slaughter is not Tamei like a Neveilah, but they admit that the meat may not be eaten.
1. Support (Rav Ashi): The words of the Mishnah suggest this - it does not say, Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel forbid and permit, rather, they disqualify and Machshir!
2. Question: No, the wording opposes R. Chiya bar Aba - according to him, it should say they Metamei and Metaher!
3. Answer: Rather, we do not distinguish 'forbid and permit' from 'disqualify and Machshir', we cannot support or disprove R. Chiya bar Aba from this.
3) WHERE TO CUT THE "KANEH"
(a) (Mishnah): If one slaughters in the (top) ring (around the Kaneh) - if the entire cut was within the ring, even within a hair's breadth of leaving the ring, it is Kosher;
(b) R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah says, as long as the majority of the ring was cut before the knife left the ring, it is Kosher.
(c) (Gemara - Rav and Shmuel): The Halachah follows R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah; even he only referred to the top ring, since the top ring fully surrounds the Kaneh;
1. He does not permit slaughtering (Tosfos - only a majority) within any other ring.
(d) Question (Beraisa - R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah): If one slaughters in other rings, even though they do not fully surround the Kaneh, since the surround the majority, it is Kosher;
18b---------------------------------------18b

1. Hagramah (if the knife left the proper place of slaughter, even after cutting the majority of the Kaneh, the slaughter) is invalid;
2. R. Chanina ben Antignonus testified that Hagramah is valid.
(e) Answer (Rav Yosef): R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah argues with Chachamim about two points; Rav and Shmuel rule like him about one (slaughter in the top ring), and argue about one (slaughter in other rings).
(f) Question: But they said that R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah only said his law regarding the top ring!
(g) Answer: They meant, the Halachah follows him only regarding the top ring, not regarding other rings.
(h) When R. Zeira came to Eretz Yisrael, he ate animals slaughtered in other rings, which Rav and Shmuel consider to be Hagramah, unlike R. Yosi.
1. Rabanan: But you come from Bavel, where people conduct like Rav and Shmuel!
2. R. Zeira: Only Rav Yosef says that they disqualified such Hagramah;
i. Rav Yosef hears from everyone, reliable or not - he probably erred, Rav and Shmuel never really said this.
3. Rav Yosef was insulted (when he heard this). 'I don't hear from just anyone - I heard from Rav Yehudah, who is meticulous to record all possible sources of teachings!'
i. (Rav Yehudah): R. Yirmeyah bar Aba was unsure if he heard from Rav or Shmuel, that three amateurs can permit a blemished firstborn animal to be slaughtered (outside the Mikdash) if an expert Chacham is not around.
(i) Question: Does R. Zeira hold that a visitor need not adopt the stringencies of his home town and the place he visits?!
(j) Answer #1 (Abaye): That only applies to one who travels within Bavel, or within Eretz Yisrael, or goes from Eretz Yisrael to Bavel;
1. But one who goes from Bavel to Eretz Yisrael - since we (in Bavel) are subordinate to them, he conducts in all ways like a resident of Eretz Yisrael.
(k) Answer #2 (Rav Ashi): Even if a resident of Bavel goes to Eretz Yisrael, if he does not intend to return, he adopts all the customs of his new locale;
1. R. Zeira intended to remain in Eretz Yisrael.
(l) Question (Abaye, of Rav Yosef): But Chachamim of Nehardai cite Rav Nachman to say that the Hagramah (which you say that Rav and Shmuel disqualify) is Kosher!
(m) Answer (Rav Yosef): Different regions rule differently.
(n) (Reish Lakish): The top edge of the Kova (a cap on top of the top ring) is Kosher for slaughter.
(o) R. Yochanan: That is too lenient.
(p) (Rav Papi citing Rava): If the knife Paga (encountered) the Chiti (glands by the Kova) the slaughter is invalid.
1. Version #1 (Rashi) Question: Does he mean that the knife cut them, or that it came very close?
(q) (Rav *Papa* citing Rava): If he left over in the Chiti (cut them anywhere in the middle), the slaughter is Kosher.
1. Version #2 (Tosfos) Question: Does he mean that the knife cut through them, or that it cut above them?
(r) (Rav Papa citing Rava): If he left over in the Chiti (cut through them), the slaughter is Kosher. (Tosfos - but had he cut above, it would be invalid - presumably, this is what Rav Papi meant). (end of Version #2)
1. R. Chiya brei d'Rav Avya and Mar Zutra taught like Rav Papa.
(s) (Mar bar Rav Ashi): If he Paga in the Chiti, the slaughter is Kosher; if he left over in the Chiti, it is invalid.

Back