Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups




(a) (Rav Yosef bar Minyomi citing Rav Nachman): If a lung is stuck to the wall (of the rib cage), we are not concerned;
1. If blisters sprouted, we are concerned.
(b) (Mar Yehudah): In both cases we are concerned.
(c) Question: How do we check it?
(d) Answer (Rava): One separates them with a sharp knife. If a wound is found on the wall, we attribute the blisters to it, it is Kosher;
1. If not, we assume that there was a hole in the lung, it is Tereifah (even if no air escapes when we blow into the lung (perhaps a scab covers the hole) - Bach deletes this from the text).
2. Even if a wound was found on the wall, R. Nechemyah brei d'Rav Yosef would check it;
i. He would put the lung in lukewarm water and blow into it - if bubbles appear, it is Tereifah.
(e) (Mar Zutra brei d'Rav Huna brei d'Rav Papa): I heard that R. Nechemyah's test was said regarding Rava's law.
1. (Rava): If a scab formed between two (non-adjacent) chambers of the lung, testing will not help, it is Tereifah;
2. R. Nechemyah would test with warm water (as above).
(f) Objection (Rav Ashi): I understand why R. Nechemyah's test may be used when the lung is stuck to the wall - we can attribute the scab to a wound in the wall;
1. But in Rava's case, no matter which chamber is wounded, it is Tereifah!
(g) Question: Did Rav Nachman really say that if there are blisters, we are concerned?!
1. Contradiction (Rav Nachman): If the lung was punctured and the wall seals the wound, it is Kosher.
(h) Answer (Ravina): Rav Nachman is Machshir only if the lung sticks to the flesh between ribs.
(i) Question (Rav Yosef): Will you say that if the lung does not stick to the flesh between ribs, it is Tereifah, because there is a hole?!
1. If so, even if the lung sticks to the flesh, it is Tereifah!
2. (Beraisa): If a man's Ever was punctured, he is a Petzu'a Daka (and forbidden to marry); if the hole was sealed, he can bear children, hence he (is not a Petzu'a Daka and) may marry; *this* is a disqualification which can become permitted.
i. Suggestion: '*this* ' comes to exclude our case (the sealing does not make the animal Kosher).
(j) Answer (Ravina): No - it excludes a scab that forms on a hole in the lung, *that* does not help.
(k) Question (Rav Ukva bar Chama): (Ravina says that the wall may seal a hole in lung;) if the wall would be punctured there, it would be Tereifah; if so, a punctured wall should be listed with the other Tereifos in our Mishnah!
1. Counter-question: R. Yitzchak bar Yosef taught, if the liver seals a punctured gall bladder, it is Kosher - if the liver would be punctured there, it would be Tereifah - why doesn't the Mishnah list a punctured liver?
2. Answer: You must say, the Mishnah does not list a punctured liver because the animal is Tereifah on account of the gall bladder.
(l) Answer: Here also, a punctured wall it is not listed because it is Tereifah on account of the lung!
(a) Question (Rabah bar bar Chanah): If blisters developed on the lungs, what is the law?
(b) Answer (Shmuel): It is Kosher.
1. Rabah bar bar Chanah: I agree, but the Talmidim waver on this on account of Rav Masnah's law.
i. (Rav Masnah): If a blister is full of puss, it is Tereifah; if it is full of clear water, it is Kosher.
2. Shmuel: That was said regarding the kidney.
(c) R. Yitzchak bar Yosef wanted to see if R. Yirmeyah would buy meat of an animal whose lungs were full of blisters; R. Yirmeyah declined.
1. R. Yirmeyah: When people ask R. Yochanan about such animals, he tells them to ask R. Yehudah b'Rebbi Shimon, who has a tradition that it is Kosher; R. Yochanan himself is not inclined to say this.
(d) (Rava): Rav Nachman saw meat for sale, and there were large blisters on the lungs, he said nothing.

1. R. Ami and R. Asi saw meat for sale, there were giant, rock-hard blisters on the lungs; they said nothing.
(a) (R. Yochanan (and R. Elazar...)): If a needle is found in the lungs, it is Kosher;
(b) (Reish Lakish (and...)): It is Tereifah.
(c) Suggestion: They argue whether a Chisaron in the interior of the lungs ('consumed' by the needle) is problematic.
(d) Rejection: No - all agree, this is not a problem.
1. Rather, R. Yochanan assumes that the needle came through the Kaneh (even a hole up to half the circumference of the Kaneh does not make it Tereifah);
2. Reish Lakish is concerned lest it came through the Veshet (and punctured the intestines or lungs on the way, making it Tereifah).
(e) A case occurred, a needle was found in a piece of the lungs; R. Ami wanted to Machshir.
(f) Question (R. Yirmeyah - Mishnah): If the lungs were punctured or Chaser (it is Tereifah).
1. Question: What is the case of Chaser?
i. Suggestion: If the Chisaron extends to the outside - that is the same like punctured!
2. Answer: Rather, they are lacking internally - this teaches that an interior Chisaron makes it Tereifah!
(g) They asked R. Yitzchak Nafcha; he also wanted to Machshir. They asked R. Yirmeyah's question; R. Ami (Shitah Mekubetzes - R. Yitzchak) retracted, and ruled that it is Tereifah.
(h) Question: But R. Yochanan (and...) is Machshir!
(i) Answer (R. Ami or R. Yitzchak): That was when the lungs were whole, one could see that they were not punctured; here, we only see part of the lungs, perhaps another part was punctured,
(j) Inference: If the lungs were in front of us and not punctured, it would be Kosher!
(k) Question: But Rav Nachman taught, if a branch of the lung is punctured, it is Tereifah!
(l) Answer: That is when the puncture goes from one branch to another.
(m) Question: But Rav Nachman taught, if the small intestines were punctured where they touch, it is Kosher, for they protect each other.
(n) Answer (Rav Ashi): One cannot compare Tereifos - cutting an animal in one place makes it die, in another (seemingly worse) place it can survive!
(o) A needle was found in the great chamber of the lungs. Reish Lakish (and...), who said that a needle found in the lungs is Tereifah, did not want to rule on this.
1. They did not permit it, for they are concerned that it may have come through the Veshet.
2. They did not forbid it - since it was found in the great chamber, it is more likely that it came through the Kaneh.