Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups


Chulin 57 -


(a) (Mishnah): The legs were cut...
(b) Birds with cut legs were brought before Rava; he checked that the sinews were intact at the juncture of the sinews, and ruled that they are Kosher.
(c) (Rav Yehudah citing Rav): If the foreleg of an animal became detached, it is Kosher; regarding a bird, it is Tereifah.
(d) If the wings of a bird became detached, it is Tereifah - we are concerned, perhaps the lung was punctured.
(e) (Shmuel and R. Yochanan): We check the lungs; if they were not punctured, it is Kosher.
1. (Chizkiyah): Birds don't have lungs.
2. R. Yochanan: They have lungs - they are the size of a rose leaf, they are between the wings.
3. Question: What does Chizkiyah mean, 'they don't have lungs'?
i. He cannot mean that they don't have lungs at all - we see that they do!
4. Answer #1: Rather, they have lungs, but defects in the lungs do not make a bird Tereifah.
5. Rejection: But Levi taught, any defect that is Tereifah in an animal is Tereifah in a bird (including punctured lungs!);
i. If the skull is broken and the membrane is intact, this is Tereifah only in birds.
6. Answer #2: A bird does not become Tereifah through an injury to the lungs on account of falling or being burned.
7. Rejection: Since R. Yochanan countered 'They have lungs - they are the size of a rose leaf, they are between the wings', we infer that Chizkiyah holds that they have no lungs at all!
8. Answer #3 (R. Yosi bar Chanina): Indeed, he meant that they have no lungs at all - Chizkiyah was not familiar with birds.
(f) (Rav Huna citing Rav): If the leg of a bird became detached, it is Kosher.
(g) Question (Rabah bar Rav Huna): But Chachamim of Pumbadisa say that Rav Yehudah cites Rav to say that it is Tereifah!
(h) Answer (Rav Huna): Different areas hold differently. (In Pumbadisa, they hold that this is Tereifah, therefore Rav did not want to permit this in front of them; this caused Rav Yehudah to think that Rav himself holds that it is Tereifah.)
(i) R. Yirmeyah bar Aba was checking the juncture of the sinews of birds.
1. R. Aba: Why bother - Rav Huna cited Rav to say that if the leg of a bird became detached, it is Kosher!
2. R. Yirmeyah: A Mishnah teaches, if an animal's (hind) leg was cut below the knee, it is Kosher; if it was cut above the knee, or if the juncture of the sinews was removed, it is Tereifah;
i. Rav said, the same applies to birds.
3. R. Aba: This contradicts what Rav Huna said in Rav's name!
i. R. Yirmeyah had no answer.
4. R. Aba: Perhaps cutting is Tereifah, but not if it was detached. 5. R. Yirmeyah: Rav explicitly said this!
i. We sometimes find that cutting in one place makes an animal Tereifah, but cutting away more does not!
(j) (R. Zeira citing Rav Huna citing Rav): If the leg of a bird became detached, it is Tereifah.
(k) R. Aba: After you came to Eretz Yisrael, we explicitly heard Rav Huna cite Rav to say that it is Kosher!

1. Also, when I debated with R. Yirmeyah, he ultimately agreed with this, that Rav explicitly was Machshir!
2. What is your source that it is Tereifah?
(l) R. Zeira: R. Chiya bar Aba cited Rav to say that it is Tereifah.
(m) (R. Yakov bar Idi citing R. Yochanan): It is Tereifah.
(n) (R. Yakov bar Idi): Had R. Yochanan been present when Rebbi and R. Chanina permitted this, he would not have shown any trace of dissent.
1. (R. Chanina citing Rebbi): If a bird's leg became detached, it is Kosher.
2. R. Chanina had such a bird, and Rebbi permitted it; R. Chanina preserved it and was constantly showing it to Talmidim.
(o) The Halachah does not follow these lenient opinions, rather it is like R. Yehoshua ben Levi.
1. Question (R. Yosi ben Nehurai): What size hole in the Kaneh is Tereifah?
2. Answer (R. Yehoshua ben Levi - Mishnah): The size of an Italian Isar is Tereifah.
3. Question (R. Yosi): But there was a sheep that had a hole in its Kaneh; they sealed it, and it healed!
i. Counter-question (R. Yehoshua ben Levi): This is no proof! The Halachah is established throughout Yisrael that a detached leg is Tereifah, yet R. Shimon ben Chalifta's chicken leg came off; they covered it with a reed, and it healed!
ii. Answer: You must say, even though it healed, the chicken did not live a year;
4. Answer: Also the sheep did not survive a year!
(a) R. Shimon ben Chalifta tried to get R. Yehudah to retract his opinion that a bird missing the small feathers is Tereifah.
1. R. Shimon had a chicken whose small feathers had fallen out. He put it in an oven and put a garment over it; it grew more feathers than it had to start with.
2. Question: Perhaps R. Yehudah holds that a Tereifah sometimes shows signs of improvement!
3. Answer: It will not show improvement regarding the defect that is Tereifah.
(b) "Lazy one, observe the ant and grow wise, it has no ruler or king" - R. Shimon ben Chalifta sought to verify this.
1. In summer, he made shade over an anthill. An ant came out; R. Shimon made a mark on the ant. It went back to inform the other ants of the shade (ants enjoy shade); R. Shimon removed the shade.
2. The other ants came out, and the sun beat upon them; they killed the marked ant.
3. R. Shimon: This shows that they have no king - if they had a king, they would not do this.
4. Objections (Rav Acha brei d'Rava): Perhaps the king was with them when they killed it! Or, perhaps they were fulfilling the king's decree (to kill liars)! Or, perhaps the previous king died, and they had not yet appointed the next king!
i. We know that they have no king only from the verse.
(c) (Rav Huna): If an injured animal survives 12 months, this shows that it was not Tereifah.
(d) Question (Beraisa): A sign of Tereifos is that the animal cannot bear children;
1. R. Shimon ben Gamliel says, if it improves, it is Kosher; if it gets worse, it is Tereifah;
2. Rebbi says, if it lives 30 days, this shows that it is Kosher.
3. Chachamim: But many Tereifos survive two or three years!
(e) Answer: Rav Huna holds like the following Tana.
1. (Beraisa): If there is a long hole in the skull, or many small holes that add up to the area of a drill (it is Tereifah);
2. R. Yosi ben ha'Meshulam says, there was a case of a man whose skull was pierced; they covered over it with a gourd, and he lived.
3. R. Shimon ben Elazar: That is no proof - he was hurt in summer, and died that winter!
(f) (Rav Acha bar Yakov): The Halachah is, a Tereifah can give birth and improve.