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08-24-2011
Title:
Chulin 62 - HOW TO KNOW THAT A BIRD IS

Message:
1) HOW TO KNOW THAT A BIRD IS "TAHOR"

(a) (Rav Nachman): If one who recognizes the Tamei species finds a bird that has a Siman (and knows it is not from the Tamei species), it is permitted;
(b) One who does not that recognize the Tamei species:
1. If the bird has one Siman, he may not eat it;
2. If it has two Simanim and he knows that it is not a raven, it is permitted.
3. Question: Are we concerned only for ravens?!
i. (Beraisa - R. Eliezer): "The raven, l'Minehu (and its related species)" - this includes the Zarzir (starling); it also includes the white Sanunis (swallow).
ii. Chachamim: But people of Timrasa eat Zarzir, because it has a crop; and people of Galil eat white Sanunis, because its stomach can be peeled!
iii. R. Eliezer: They will ultimately be punished for this.
4. Answer: Rather, he must know that it is not a raven, nor a related species.
(c) (Ameimar): The law is, if a bird has a Siman, it is assumed to be Tahor, like long like we do not see it Dores (Rashi; Tosfos - if the Siman is that it is not Dores.)
(d) Rav Ashi: This argues with Rav Nachman!
(e) Ameimar: Yes! The only Tamei species that is not Dores is Peres or Ozniyah - these are not found in settled areas, we are not concerned for it.
(f) (Rav Yehudah): A bird that scratches - this is the white Sanunis that R. Eliezer and Chachamim argued on; it may be used for Taharas Metzora.
(g) Version #1 (Ameimar): If the stomach is white, all agree that it is permitted;
1. They argue when the stomach is green - R. Eliezer forbids, Chachamim permit; the Halachah follows R. Eliezer.
(h) Version #2 (Mar Zutra): If the stomach is green, all agree that it is forbidden;
1. They argue when the stomach is white - R. Eliezer forbids, Chachamim permit; the Halachah follows Chachamim. (End of Version #2)
(i) According to Mar Zutra, they argue when the stomach is white - we understand R. Eliezer in the Beraisa, "The raven, l'Mino" - this includes the white Sanunis.
(j) Question: According to Ameimar, all agree that if the stomach is white, it is permitted - what does R. Eliezer forbid in the Beraisa?
(k) Answer: He forbids it when the stomach is red;
1. He calls it white to show that he does not refer to the species that dwells in houses, which is black (R. Gershom - all forbid that species.)
2) SPECIES OF "TORIM" AND DOVES
(a) (Rachbah): *Tasil* is a species of dove, it is not a Tor (therefore, it is acceptable for a Korban only when it is young);
1. Atzifi and Torim of Rachbah (kinds of turtle-doves) are species of Torim, not of doves (they are acceptable for Korbanos only when they are old.)
(b) Question (Rav Daniel bar Rav Katina - Mishnah): Any bird that drinks from Mei Chatas (water Mekudash with ashes of the Parah Adumah) disqualifies it, except for a dove, since doves suck the water (and do not return it.)
62b---------------------------------------62b

1. If Tasil is also a species of dove, the Mishnah should also mention that Tasil does not disqualify the water!
(c) Answer (R. Zeira): Tasil sucks the water and returns it (disqualifying the rest); doves suck the water and do not return it.
(d) (Rav Yehudah): Kufshani (turtle-doves) of Tzutzaini are the Torim of Rachbah; they are valid for Korbanos.
(e) Question (Mishnah): "Hyssop" (may be used for the Parah Adumah), not the following hyssops:
1. Of Yavan; blue hyssop (Aruch; Rambam - hyssop of Kuchli); of Romi; wild hyssop; any hyssop with an accompanying name. (Likewise, Torim of Rachbah should be invalid!)
(f) Answer #1 (Abaye): An accompanying name only disqualifies if that name existed when the Torah was given.
1. By specifying the generic name, the Torah disqualified all other varieties.
2. The other name for Torim arose after the Torah was given.
(g) Answer #2 (Rava): In Tzutzaini, Kufshani of Tzutzaini are simply called Torim.
3) OTHER SPECIES
(a) (Rav Yehudah): Karzei (Rashi - locusts; Tosfos - very small birds) found in nettles (a small plant) are permitted; those found in cabbage are forbidden.
(b) (Ravina): If one eats the latter he is lashed, for they are Sheretz ha'Of (flying swarming creatures.)
(c) (Rav Yehudah): Tzarda is permitted; Barda is forbidden; Marda is doubtful. (These are types of birds.)
(d) (Rav Asi): We are in doubt about eight birds - Chuva, Chuga, Suga, Harnuga, Tushlami, Marda, Kuchilna, and Bar Nafcha. (A possible translation of them, in order - Baillon's crake, spotted crake, a type of Chuva, corn orake, water rail, purple gallinula, a bird similar to Marda, moorhen.)
1. One Siman is that the stomach can be peeled - in these birds, it can be peeled only with a knife, not by hand.
2. Question: But Shmuel had a (dead) goose whose stomach could not be peeled; after it was in the sun for a while, it could be peeled! (Even though the stomach is too hard to be peeled, this is not a Siman of Tum'ah!)
3. Answer: In these birds, even after the stomach softens, it cannot be peeled by hand.
(e) (Abaye): Marda (one of the eight doubtful birds) is the rooster of the swamp.
(f) (Rav Papa): The rooster of the swamp is forbidden; the hen of the swamp (a different species) is permitted.
(g) (Mereimar): Chachamim subsequently saw the hen of the swamp Dores; they forbade it.
(h) (The identity of many of the following birds is unclear.)
(i) (Rav): Shevor Andrafta is permitted; Piruz Andrafta is forbidden.
(j) (Rav Huna): Bunya is permitted; Parva is forbidden.
(k) (Rav Papa): Mardu Zagid v'Achil is permitted; Sagid v'Achil is forbidden.
(l) (Shmuel): Shasya Chamra and Mazga Chamra are forbidden; bas Mazga Chamra is permitted.
(m) (Rav Yehudah): A red flamingo with long legs is permitted; if it has short legs, it is forbidden.

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