Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups


Chulin 75 - WHAT MAKES


(a) Question (Rava): What is the source that death makes Nipul, but slaughter does not make Nipul?
(b) Answer: "Anything that they (Sheratzim) will fall on *b'Mosam*, it will become Tamei".
1. Question: What does this come to exclude?
i. If need not exclude when they are alive - this is already excluded (it says "Neveilah")!
(c) Answer: Rather, it teaches that death makes Nipul, but slaughter does not make Nipul.
(d) Question (Rav Ada bar Ahavah): That verse refers to Sheratzim, not to animals!
(e) Answer (Rava): Slaughter does not apply to Sheratzim, therefore, we use the verse to teach about animals.
(f) Question: But this verse is needed to teach that Sheratzim Metamei only when they are moist!
(g) Answer: It says "B'Mosam" twice.
(h) (Rav Chisda): R. Meir and Chachamim argue about the limb of a live fetus, but all agree that if a limb of a dead fetus left the womb, slaughter of the mother is not Metaher.
(i) (Rabah): They argue in both cases.
(a) (Mishnah): A living Ben Shmoneh (a fetus of only 8 months, i.e. a Nefel)...(slaughter does not apply to this category of animals).
(b) Contradiction (Beraisa): Even though slaughter applies to (all Tahor animals, which includes) a Ben Shmoneh, it becomes Neveilah even if it is slaughtered.
(c) Answer (Rav Kahana): That Tana says that slaughter applies to a Ben Shmoneh, because slaughter of the mother permits a Ben Shmoneh inside;
1. The Tana of our Mishnah does not consider this grounds to say that slaughter applies to a Ben Shmoneh.
(d) Question: How does the Tana of the Beraisa know that a slaughtered Treifah is not a Neveilah? (A Ben Shmoneh proves that it is not enough (for this Tana) that slaughter applies to Treifah animals!)
(e) Answer (Rav Yehudah, also a Beraisa): "When will die *from* an animal (...the Neveilah)" - some animals become Neveilah when they die, others do not;
1. A slaughtered Treifah does not become Neveilah.
(a) Question (R. Hoshaya): A fetus was slaughtered inside the womb - what is the law?
1. This question may be asked both according to R. Meir and Chachamim.
2. R. Meir only said that a Ben Peku'ah (a fetus inside a slaughtered mother) must itself be slaughtered (for it is not permitted through slaughter of the mother) when it left the mother - he could say that slaughter does not apply to it before it leaves the womb;
3. Chachamim hold that a Ben Peku'ah is permitted through slaughter of the mother - they could hold that it may alternatively be permitted by being slaughtered itself in the womb!
(b) Answer (R. Chananya - Mishnah): An animal that was Treifah from (when it left) the womb (was never fit to be permitted through slaughter)...
1. If a fetus may be slaughtered in the womb, it could have been permitted before it became Treifah!
(c) Rejection (Rava): The Mishnah should say, 'An animal that was Treifah from when it was formed in the womb'.
1. If the animal has an extra hind leg, we would know that it was Treifah from its formation.
(d) (Mishnah): If one slaughters an animal and finds inside a Ben Shmoneh, dead or alive, or a dead Ben Tesha (a 9-month (viable) fetus), the fetus may be eaten without slaughter, just its blood must be removed;
(e) R. Meir says, if a live Ben Tesha is inside, it must be slaughtered, and the prohibition of slaughtering a mother and her child on the same day applies to the child;
1. Chachamim say, slaughter of the mother causes the child to be Tahor;

2. R. Shimon Shezuri says, even if the child is 5 years old and plowing in the field, slaughter of the mother was Metaher it;
i. If one tears open the child and finds a live Ben Tesha in it, the fetus must be slaughtered, for its mother was not slaughtered.
(f) (Gemara - R. Elazar): Chachamim were only lenient about the Ben Peku'ah regarding slaughter.
(g) Question: What does he exclude?
(h) Answer #1: He excludes its Chelev and Gid ha'Nasheh.
1. Version #1 (Rashi) Rejection: They also argue about those, and Chachamim are lenient!
i. (Beraisa - R. Meir): The Gid ha'Nasheh and Chelev of a fetus are forbidden; R. Yehudah permits them.
ii. (R. Elazar): They argue about a live Ben Tesha, just like they argue about slaughter. (whether a Ben Peku'ah is considered a live animal or permitted meat.)
2. Version #2 (Tosfos) Question: Which Chelev?
i. It cannot be the Chelev of the fetus - they also argue about those, and Chachamim are lenient!
ii. (Beraisa - R. Meir): The Gid ha'Nasheh and Chelev of a fetus are forbidden; R. Yehudah permits them.
iii. (R. Elazar): They argue about a live Ben Tesha, just like they argue about slaughter.
3. Answer: Rather, R. Elazar meant that R. Meir is stringent only regarding slaughter, but he permits the Chelev of the Gid ha'Nasheh.
4. Rejection: R. Meir forbids it!
i. (Beraisa - R. Meir): One must dig out all the all the fat around the Gid ha'Nasheh; R. Yehudah says, it suffices to remove what is above the surface. (End of Version #2)
(i) Answer #2: Rather, R. Elazar meant that Chachamim are only lenient about matters relating to eating, but they forbid relations with the calf, or making it work with a different species.
(a) (Reish Lakish): R. Yehudah, who permits its Chelev, also permits its blood; R. Meir, who forbids its Chelev, also forbids its blood;
(b) (R. Yochanan): All agree that the blood is forbidden.
(c) Question (against Reish Lakish - Mishnah): One tears the fetus and extracts the blood. (No one argues, all forbid the blood!)
(d) Answer (R. Zeira): Reish Lakish only meant that one is not Chayav Kares for eating the blood, he agrees that it is forbidden.
(e) Objection: But Reish Lakish said this according to R. Yehudah - R. Yehudah holds that one is Chayav Kares for eating Dam Tamtzis (blood that drains out after the initial spurt of blood upon an animal's death), blood of a fetus should not be more lenient!
1. (Beraisa): If one eats Dam Tamtzis he transgresses a Lav; R. Yehudah says, he is Chayav Kares.
(f) Answer (Rav Yosef brei d'Rav Sala Chasida): R. Yehudah expounds "Blood...all blood" - one is Chayav Kares for Dam Tamtzis only if the animal's Dam ha'Nefesh (the blood that exudes as it dies) is punishable by Kares.
(g) Question: Can a Ben Peku'ah be used as a Seh (sheep or goat) to redeem a firstborn donkey?
1. According to R. Meir, clearly it can - since it must be slaughtered, it is a fully fledged Seh;
2. According to Chachamim - do we say, since it became permitted through its mother's slaughter, it is called meat (and not a Seh);
i. Or, since it runs around, it is called a Seh?
(h) Answer #1 (Mar Zutra): It cannot be used.
(i) Answer #2 (Rav Ashi): It can be used.
1. Question (Rav Ashi to Mar Zutra): Do you learn from a Gezeirah Shavah Seh-Seh from the Korban Pesach (for which a Ben Peku'ah is invalid)?
i. If so, you should require all the qualifications for the Korban Pesach - a male, unblemished, in its first year!
2. Answer: The Torah says twice "You will redeem" - the repetition teaches, even a Seh lacking qualifications for Pesach is valid.
3. Question: If so, it should also include a Ben Peku'ah!
4. Answer: This cannot be, for then the Gezeirah Shavah would not teach anything.