Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups
Kitzurdaf

Back

08-30-2011
Title:
Chulin 80 - THE ARGUMENT ABOUT THE

Message:
1) THE ARGUMENT ABOUT THE "KOY"

(a) (Rav Papa): Regarding Kisuy and Matanos, the Tana'im discuss a Koy that is born from a male deer and a female goat;
1. All are unsure whether we are concerned for the seed of the father;
2. Chachamim say that a partial Seh is a Seh; R. Eliezer says, it is not.
(b) Regarding Oso v'Es Beno, they discuss any child of a deer and goat;
1. If the mother is a deer, Chachamim forbid (slaughtering the child and the child's child on the same day - perhaps we are concerned for the seed of the father, and it is a half-goat), R. Eliezer permits (even if it is a half-goat, it is not forbidden);
2. If the mother is a goat, Chachamim give lashes (for slaughtering the child and its child on the same day, since it is at least a half-goat), R. Eliezer does not (but admits that it is forbidden, perhaps it is a full goat.)
2) QUESTIONABLE "CHAYOS"
(a) (Rav Yehudah): A Koy is a species unto itself; Chachamim were unable to decide if it is a Chayah or Behemah.
(b) (Rav Nachman): A Koy is a wild ram (Tosfos - this is a Chayah.)
(c) Each holds like a different Tana:
1. (Beraisa): A Koy is a wild ram;
2. Some say, it is the child of a male goat and a female deer;
3. R. Yosi says, it is a species unto itself, Chachamim could not decide if it is a Chayah or Behemah;
4. R. Shimon ben Gamliel says, it is a Behemah; a certain family grew great flocks of them.
(d) (R. Zeira): Forest goats are Kosher for Korbanos (they are considered goats.)
1. He holds like R. Yitzchak.
2. (R. Yitzchak): The Torah lists only 10 Kosher animals; since forest goats are not listed among the Kosher Chayos, they must be (Behemos, i.e.) goats.
(e) Question #1 (Rav Acha bar Yakov): "Wild goat and deer" are Pratim, "Every animal" is a Klal;
1. From a Prat and Klal, we include more things!
(f) Answer: If the Torah meant to include more species, it would not have listed so many Pratim!
(g) Question #2: (Rav Acha brei d'Rav Ika): Perhaps the forest goat is Ako (one of the Kosher Chayos that we do not recognize!)
(h) Question #3: (Rav Acha brei d'Rava): Perhaps it is Te'o or Zemer (other Kosher Chayos!)
(i) (R. Chanan): Ameimar permitted Chelev of the forest goat (he is sure it is a Chayah.)
(j) Question (Aba brei d'Rav Minyamin bar Chiya): Are forest goats Kosher for Korbanos?
(k) Answer (Rav Huna bar Chiya): Chachamim and R. Yosi only argue about a wild ox (this is the Arame'ic translation of Te'o); all agree that forest goats are goats.
1. (Mishnah): A wild ox is a Behemah;
2. R. Yosi says, it is a Chayah.
3. Chachamim learn from its Targum, 'Torbela (ox of the forest)';
4. R. Yosi says, since it is listed among the Chayos, it is a Chayah.
(l) Question #1: (Rav Acha brei d'Rav Ika): Perhaps the forest goat is Ako!
(m) Question #2: (Rav Acha brei d'Rava): Perhaps it is Te'o or Zemer!
(n) (R. Chanan): Ameimar permitted Chelev of the forest goat (he holds that it is a Chayah!)
3) SLAUGHTER THAT DOES NOT PERMIT THE MEAT
(a) (Mishnah): If one slaughters...
(b) (R. Oshiya): The Mishnah is not like R. Shimon.
1. It says, if (a mother and son of) Kodshim are slaughtered outside, the first slaughterer is Chayav Kares, both slaughterers are lashed, and both animals are forbidden;
2. R. Shimon holds that unfit slaughter (i.e. that does not permit the meat) is not considered slaughter;
i. Since the first slaughter is not slaughter, the second animal was a Kosher Korban when slaughtered outside, the second slaughterer should also get Kares!
80b---------------------------------------80b

3. The Mishnah says, if Chulin are slaughtered inside, the second slaughterer is lashed, and both animals are forbidden;
i. According to R. Shimon, the first slaughter is not slaughter, the second slaughterer should not be lashed!
4. The Mishnah says, if Kodshim are slaughtered inside, the first Korban is Kosher, the second is Pasul, the second slaughterer is lashed;
i. According to R. Shimon slaughter of Kodshim is an unfit slaughter (since it does not permit the meat, Zerikah (throwing the blood) permits it) - the second Korban should also be Kosher and the slaughterer should not be lashed!
5. All these show that the Mishnah is not like R. Shimon.
(c) Question: This is obvious!
(d) Answer: One might have thought, slaughter of Kodshim is considered proper slaughter, for it helps to permit the meat;
1. If one did Nechirah, Zerikah would not permit the meat; if one slaughters, Zerikah permits the meat!
2. R. Oshiya teaches that is not considered proper slaughter (since it does not permit the meat immediately, or because slaughter alone does not permit.)
4) LASHES FOR TRANSGRESSING "OSO V'ES BENO"
(a) Question: There are no lashes (mentioned in the Mishnah) for slaughtering a Korban too early - why not?
1. (Beraisa): "An ox or Seh that has an oversized limb..." - this teaches that one who offers any Pasul Korban transgresses "It will not be accepted".
(b) Answer #1: The Mishnah only mentions lashes for Oso v'Es Beno, not for other Isurim.
(c) Objection: The Mishnah mentions lashes for Shechutei Chutz!
1. (Mishnah): If both were Kodshim and slaughtered outside, the first slaughterer is Chayav Kares, both are lashed.
i. The second is lashed for Oso v'Es Beno, but the first is lashed for Shechutei Chutz!
(d) Answer #2: The Mishnah only mentions lashes for other Isurim if there are no lashes for Oso v'Es Beno.

Back