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08-30-2011 Title: Chulin 84 - Message: 1) "KISUY HA'DAM" OF "KODSHIM" (cont.) (g) Answer #1: Indeed, we cover blood of Korbanos ha'Of in this way; 1. The Mishnah teaches that Kisuy ha'Dam does not apply to Kodshim of Bedek ha'Bayis (because they may not be eaten.) 2. Question: Since we can redeem them (and eat them), we should do Kisuy! 3. Answer: Redemption of animals requires Ha'amadah and Ha'arachah (standing it up before a Kohen for appraisal) - this cannot be done after slaughter. 4. Question: Like whom is the Mishnah? i. Suggestion: It is like R. Meir, who holds that even Kodshim of Bedek ha'Bayis require Ha'amadah and Ha'arachah. ii. Rejection: He holds that even if slaughter does not permit the meat to be eaten, it is considered slaughter (and we must cover the blood)! iii. Suggestion: The Mishnah is like R. Shimon, who says that slaughter that does not permit is not considered slaughter (so Kisuy is not needed.) iv. Rejection: He holds that Kodshei Bedek ha'Bayis do not require Ha'amadah and Ha'arachah! 5. Answer #1 (Rav Yosef): The Mishnah is like Rebbi. i. Rebbi holds like R. Shimon regarding slaughter that does not permit (it is not considered slaughter); he holds like R. Meir regarding redemption of Kodshei Bedek ha'Bayis. 6. Answer #2: The Mishnah is like R. Shimon; a verse teaches that the blood must be fit to be covered immediately. i. "He will spill (the blood) and cover" - the blood must be fit to be covered immediately after slaughter; ii. This excludes Kodshei Bedek ha'Bayis, which need not be covered until after redemption. iii. This suggests another answer to Question 4:b (83B). (h) Answer #2: The Mishnah also exempts Korbanos from Kisuy, since Kisuy cannot be done until the blood is scraped off the Mizbe'ach. (i) Answer #3 (Mar bar Rav Ashi): The Mishnah also exempts Korbanos from Kisuy; 1. "Chayah O Of" - Kisuy applies to birds that are like Chayos, i.e. they are not Korbanos. 2. Suggestion: We should say that the verse discusses species of birds that are like Chayos, i.e. they are invalid for Kodshim; i. This would exclude Torim and doves. 3. Rejection: The verse equates Chayos and birds - just like Kisuy applies to all species of Chayos, also regarding birds. 2) TO WHICH ANIMALS THE MITZVAH APPLIES (a) Question (Yakov Mina'ah): The Torah gives Simanim of Kosher Behemos, they also apply to Chayos; 1. We should say, the Torah commands to cover the blood of Chayos, this also applies to Behemos! (b) Answer (Rava): "On the ground you will spill it (Dam of blemished Korbanos, which are Behemos) like water" - just like water need not be covered, also Dam Behemah. (c) Question: If blood of blemished Korbanos is equated to water, it should be valid for a Mikveh! (d) Answer: "Ach Mayan u'Vor Mikveh Mayim Yihyeh Tahor" - only these (springs and pits of water), nothing else. (e) Question: The verse should exclude other liquids, which are not called water, but not Dam! (f) Answer: There are two exclusions in the verse - it is as if it said 'Mayan Mayim u'Vor Mayim'. (g) Question: We should exclude two cases of other liquids - flowing or collected - but not blood, which is called water! (h) Answer: There are three exclusions in the verse - it is as if it said 'Mayan Mayim u'Vor Mayim Mikveh Mayim'. (i) (Beraisa): "Asher Yatzud" - one might have thought, if it was already trapped (e.g. domestic geese and chickens), the Mitzvah does not apply - "Tzeid" includes all cases. (j) Question: If so, why did the Torah say "Asher Yatzud"? (k) Answer: This teaches proper conduct, a person should not eat meat regularly, only after exertion. 3) BEING CAREFUL WITH YOUR MONEY (a) (Beraisa): "When Hash-m will expand your borders (...and you will lust to eat meat)" - this teaches proper behavior, one should eat meat only when he has a craving for it. (b) Suggestion: Perhaps he may buy meat to eat. (c) Rejection: "You will slaughter from your cattle and flock". (d) Suggestion: Perhaps he may slaughter all his animals! (e) Rejection: "*From* your cattle and *from* your flock" - not all of them. 1. (R. Eliezer ben Azaryah): If one has one Maneh (100 Zuz; two Manos is an average annual income, it is the threshhold of being considered poor), he should buy one Litra of vegetables; if he has 10 Manos, he should buy fish; if he has 50 Manos, he should buy meat; if he has 100 Manos, he should have meat every day. 2. Question: How often should people with 10 (and 50) eat fish (and meat)? 3. Answer: They should eat them only on Shabbos. 4. (Rav): We should follow R. Eliezer ben Azaryah's teaching. 5. (R. Yochanan): Rav was healthy, he could conduct like R. Eliezer ben Azaryah; we are not healthy, one who has money should spend it on food. 6. (Rav Nachman): We are so weak, we should borrow money to buy food. (f) "Sheep for your clothing" - which you will make from their wool; "The price of a field (use to buy) goats" (they give milk and clothing.) (g) "It is enough (for your sustenance), the milk of goats" - you should not slaughter them. (h) "For your bread, for the bread of your household" - your bread comes before that of your household; (i) (Mar Zutra brei d'Rav Nachman): "And life for your youths" - do not accustom your children to meat and wine (rather, to simple foods.) (j) (R. Yochanan): To get rich, one should raise small animals. 84b---------------------------------------84b 1. (Rav Chisda): He learns from "Ashteros (the root is Ashir, wealth) Tzonecha" - they make their owners wealthy. (k) (R. Yochanan): Lukewarm water is more hazardous than water on which witchcraft has been used. 1. This is only if the warm water was in a metal vessel (not earthenware), without spices, and was never boiled; 2. If any of these conditions is not met, the water is fine. (l) (R. Yochanan): The following cause a person to lose his money - wearing linen garments, using glass vessels, and not supervising one's workers. 1. He refers to Roman linen and white glass, which are very expensive; 2. He refers to workers that plow with cattle - their negligence causes great losses. (m) (Rav Avira): "Good is a gracious man that lends, he finances his matters properly" - a person should eat food less than his income dictates; 1. He should clothe himself according to his income; 2. He should honor his wife and children more than his income dictates, for they depend on him, and he depends on Hash-m. 4) "KISUY HA'DAM" ON SHABBOS OR YOM TOV (a) (Rav Eina): If one slaughters (a Chayah or bird) for a Choleh (dangerously sick person) on Shabbos, he must cover the blood. (b) Question (Rabah - Beraisa - R. Yosi): We do not slaughter a Koy on Yom Tov; if it was slaughtered, a Kal va'Chomer teaches that Kisuy should not be done: 1. Circumcision overrides Shabbos if we know that it is the eighth day; if we are not sure, it does not override even Yom Tov; 2. Kisuy does not override Shabbos, even for a definite Chayah or bird - all the more so, it does not override Yom Tov for a Safek Chayah! 3. Objection #1 (Chachamim): Teki'as (sounding the) Shofar (on Rosh Hashanah) in the Gevulim (outside the Mikdash, or Yerushalayim, or the city where the Sanhedrin resides) disproves this - we do not blow on Shabbos even for a definite Mitzvah, but we blow on Yom Tov for a Safek (this will be explained)! 4. Objection #2 (R. Elazar ha'Hakapar Beribi): Kisuy applies even at times when circumcision does not, e.g. the night of Yom Tov, so one cannot learn from circumcision that Kisuy does not override Yom Tov for a Safek! i. (R. Aba): R. Chiya could not challenge R. Yosi's Kal va'Chomer, until he heard R. Elazar ha'Hakapar's question. 5. (Summation of question (b)): It says that Kisuy does not override Shabbos, even for a definite Chayah or bird. 6. Suggestion: The case is, the slaughter was for a Choleh. (c) Answer: Perhaps the slaughter was for a healthy person - since it was forbidden to slaughter, Kisuy is not done. (d) Rejection: No, the slaughter is like circumcision (from which R. Yosi learns), which was permitted. (Rav Eina is refuted.) |