Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups


Chulin 84 -

1) "KISUY HA'DAM" OF "KODSHIM" (cont.)

(g) Answer #1: Indeed, we cover blood of Korbanos ha'Of in this way;
1. The Mishnah teaches that Kisuy ha'Dam does not apply to Kodshim of Bedek ha'Bayis (because they may not be eaten.)
2. Question: Since we can redeem them (and eat them), we should do Kisuy!
3. Answer: Redemption of animals requires Ha'amadah and Ha'arachah (standing it up before a Kohen for appraisal) - this cannot be done after slaughter.
4. Question: Like whom is the Mishnah?
i. Suggestion: It is like R. Meir, who holds that even Kodshim of Bedek ha'Bayis require Ha'amadah and Ha'arachah.
ii. Rejection: He holds that even if slaughter does not permit the meat to be eaten, it is considered slaughter (and we must cover the blood)!
iii. Suggestion: The Mishnah is like R. Shimon, who says that slaughter that does not permit is not considered slaughter (so Kisuy is not needed.)
iv. Rejection: He holds that Kodshei Bedek ha'Bayis do not require Ha'amadah and Ha'arachah!
5. Answer #1 (Rav Yosef): The Mishnah is like Rebbi.
i. Rebbi holds like R. Shimon regarding slaughter that does not permit (it is not considered slaughter); he holds like R. Meir regarding redemption of Kodshei Bedek ha'Bayis.
6. Answer #2: The Mishnah is like R. Shimon; a verse teaches that the blood must be fit to be covered immediately.
i. "He will spill (the blood) and cover" - the blood must be fit to be covered immediately after slaughter;
ii. This excludes Kodshei Bedek ha'Bayis, which need not be covered until after redemption.
iii. This suggests another answer to Question 4:b (83B).
(h) Answer #2: The Mishnah also exempts Korbanos from Kisuy, since Kisuy cannot be done until the blood is scraped off the Mizbe'ach.
(i) Answer #3 (Mar bar Rav Ashi): The Mishnah also exempts Korbanos from Kisuy;
1. "Chayah O Of" - Kisuy applies to birds that are like Chayos, i.e. they are not Korbanos.
2. Suggestion: We should say that the verse discusses species of birds that are like Chayos, i.e. they are invalid for Kodshim;
i. This would exclude Torim and doves.
3. Rejection: The verse equates Chayos and birds - just like Kisuy applies to all species of Chayos, also regarding birds.
(a) Question (Yakov Mina'ah): The Torah gives Simanim of Kosher Behemos, they also apply to Chayos;
1. We should say, the Torah commands to cover the blood of Chayos, this also applies to Behemos!
(b) Answer (Rava): "On the ground you will spill it (Dam of blemished Korbanos, which are Behemos) like water" - just like water need not be covered, also Dam Behemah.
(c) Question: If blood of blemished Korbanos is equated to water, it should be valid for a Mikveh!
(d) Answer: "Ach Mayan u'Vor Mikveh Mayim Yihyeh Tahor" - only these (springs and pits of water), nothing else.
(e) Question: The verse should exclude other liquids, which are not called water, but not Dam!
(f) Answer: There are two exclusions in the verse - it is as if it said 'Mayan Mayim u'Vor Mayim'.
(g) Question: We should exclude two cases of other liquids - flowing or collected - but not blood, which is called water!
(h) Answer: There are three exclusions in the verse - it is as if it said 'Mayan Mayim u'Vor Mayim Mikveh Mayim'.
(i) (Beraisa): "Asher Yatzud" - one might have thought, if it was already trapped (e.g. domestic geese and chickens), the Mitzvah does not apply - "Tzeid" includes all cases.
(j) Question: If so, why did the Torah say "Asher Yatzud"?
(k) Answer: This teaches proper conduct, a person should not eat meat regularly, only after exertion.
(a) (Beraisa): "When Hash-m will expand your borders (...and you will lust to eat meat)" - this teaches proper behavior, one should eat meat only when he has a craving for it.
(b) Suggestion: Perhaps he may buy meat to eat.
(c) Rejection: "You will slaughter from your cattle and flock".
(d) Suggestion: Perhaps he may slaughter all his animals!
(e) Rejection: "*From* your cattle and *from* your flock" - not all of them.
1. (R. Eliezer ben Azaryah): If one has one Maneh (100 Zuz; two Manos is an average annual income, it is the threshhold of being considered poor), he should buy one Litra of vegetables; if he has 10 Manos, he should buy fish; if he has 50 Manos, he should buy meat; if he has 100 Manos, he should have meat every day.
2. Question: How often should people with 10 (and 50) eat fish (and meat)?
3. Answer: They should eat them only on Shabbos.
4. (Rav): We should follow R. Eliezer ben Azaryah's teaching.
5. (R. Yochanan): Rav was healthy, he could conduct like R. Eliezer ben Azaryah; we are not healthy, one who has money should spend it on food.
6. (Rav Nachman): We are so weak, we should borrow money to buy food.
(f) "Sheep for your clothing" - which you will make from their wool; "The price of a field (use to buy) goats" (they give milk and clothing.)
(g) "It is enough (for your sustenance), the milk of goats" - you should not slaughter them.
(h) "For your bread, for the bread of your household" - your bread comes before that of your household;
(i) (Mar Zutra brei d'Rav Nachman): "And life for your youths" - do not accustom your children to meat and wine (rather, to simple foods.)
(j) (R. Yochanan): To get rich, one should raise small animals.

1. (Rav Chisda): He learns from "Ashteros (the root is Ashir, wealth) Tzonecha" - they make their owners wealthy.
(k) (R. Yochanan): Lukewarm water is more hazardous than water on which witchcraft has been used.
1. This is only if the warm water was in a metal vessel (not earthenware), without spices, and was never boiled;
2. If any of these conditions is not met, the water is fine.
(l) (R. Yochanan): The following cause a person to lose his money - wearing linen garments, using glass vessels, and not supervising one's workers.
1. He refers to Roman linen and white glass, which are very expensive;
2. He refers to workers that plow with cattle - their negligence causes great losses.
(m) (Rav Avira): "Good is a gracious man that lends, he finances his matters properly" - a person should eat food less than his income dictates;
1. He should clothe himself according to his income;
2. He should honor his wife and children more than his income dictates, for they depend on him, and he depends on Hash-m.
(a) (Rav Eina): If one slaughters (a Chayah or bird) for a Choleh (dangerously sick person) on Shabbos, he must cover the blood.
(b) Question (Rabah - Beraisa - R. Yosi): We do not slaughter a Koy on Yom Tov; if it was slaughtered, a Kal va'Chomer teaches that Kisuy should not be done:
1. Circumcision overrides Shabbos if we know that it is the eighth day; if we are not sure, it does not override even Yom Tov;
2. Kisuy does not override Shabbos, even for a definite Chayah or bird - all the more so, it does not override Yom Tov for a Safek Chayah!
3. Objection #1 (Chachamim): Teki'as (sounding the) Shofar (on Rosh Hashanah) in the Gevulim (outside the Mikdash, or Yerushalayim, or the city where the Sanhedrin resides) disproves this - we do not blow on Shabbos even for a definite Mitzvah, but we blow on Yom Tov for a Safek (this will be explained)!
4. Objection #2 (R. Elazar ha'Hakapar Beribi): Kisuy applies even at times when circumcision does not, e.g. the night of Yom Tov, so one cannot learn from circumcision that Kisuy does not override Yom Tov for a Safek!
i. (R. Aba): R. Chiya could not challenge R. Yosi's Kal va'Chomer, until he heard R. Elazar ha'Hakapar's question.
5. (Summation of question (b)): It says that Kisuy does not override Shabbos, even for a definite Chayah or bird.
6. Suggestion: The case is, the slaughter was for a Choleh.
(c) Answer: Perhaps the slaughter was for a healthy person - since it was forbidden to slaughter, Kisuy is not done.
(d) Rejection: No, the slaughter is like circumcision (from which R. Yosi learns), which was permitted. (Rav Eina is refuted.)