Zevachim 86 - THINGS NOT FIT FOR THE
1) THINGS NOT FIT FOR THE "MIZBE'ACH" (cont.)
(a) (Beraisa): "V'Hiktir ha'Kohen Es ha'Kol ha'Mizbechah" - this includes bones, sinews, horns and hooves;
(b) Suggestion: Perhaps it includes even the Peresh!
(c) Rejection: "V'Asisa Olosecha ha'Basar veha'Dam".
(d) Suggestion: If only meat and blood are offered, perhaps we must remove the sinews and bones!
(e) Rejection: "V'Hiktir ha'Kohen Es ha'Kol".
(f) Conclusion: If they are still attached, they are offered; if they separated, even on top of the Mizbe'ach, Yerdu.
(g) Question: Who is the Tana (Tosfos - of the Beraisa; Rashi - and our Mishnah), who says that if they separated, Yerdu?
(h) Answer: It is Rebbi.
1. (Beraisa): "V'Hiktir ha'Kohen Es ha'Kol ha'Mizbechah" - this includes bones, sinews, horns and hooves, even if they separated;
i. Question: What does "V'Asisa Olosecha ha'Basar veha'Dam" exclude?
ii. Answer: This teaches that we return to the Mizbe'ach partially burned meat of an Olah (that flew off), not partially burned bones and sinews.
2. Rebbi says, the first verse includes, the latter excludes - we include when they (bones, sinews...) are attached, Ya'aleh; when they are detached, Yerdu.
3. (Our text cites the Mishnah now - Tosfos deletes this, for the following explains the last clause of the Beraisa, when they are on the Mizbe'ach.)
4. (R. Zeira): This is only if they came off the meat to the side further from the fire - if they separated closer to the fire, this is part of the process of being burned (surely, Lo Yerdu)!
(i) (Text of Rebbi, according to Shitah Mekubetzes) Question (Does the first Tana of the Beraisa really say that we offer them) even if they separated?! (The Mishnah said Ya'alu only when they are attached!)
(j) Answer (Rabah): It means, the law 'When they are detached, Yerdu (and they are forbidden like Kodshim)' only applies if they separated after Zerikah - but if they separate before Zerikah, the Zerikah permits them (like Chulin), the Kohen may use them to make a knife handle.
(k) Rabah holds like R. Yochanan.
1. (R. Yochanan): It says "Lo Yihyeh" regarding (skin of) an Olah (that the Kohen receives it), and regarding Asham;
i. Just like the bones of Asham are permitted to Kohanim (they receive and eat the meat), also bones of an Olah.
2. Suggestion: We must say that the words "Lo Yihyeh" are extra, for if not we could not learn from the Gezerah Shavah, for Asham is more lenient, its meat is permitted to Kohanim!
3. Confirmation: Indeed, the words "Lo Yihyeh" regarding Olah are superfluous.
(l) Question (Rav Ada bar Ahavah - Beraisa): Me'ilah applies to bones of (Kodshei) Kodshim (that are eaten) before Zerikah, not after Zerikah (they become permitted with the meat);
1. Me'ilah always applies to bones of an Olah.
(m) Answer: It should say, if bones of an Olah separated before Zerikah, there is no Me'ilah; if they separated after Zerikah, Me'ilah always applies.
(n) Rabah argues with R. Elazar.
1. (R. Elazar): If bones (of an Olah) separated before Zerikah, there is Me'ilah (since they will not be offered, Zerikah does not permit them); if they separated after Zerikah, it is forbidden to benefit from them (mid'Rabanan), there is no Me'ilah.
2) RETURNING ARTICLES TO THE "MIZBE'AC"H
(a) (Mishnah): If any of these (Pesulim, or bones, sinews, ..) flew off the Mizbe'ach, we do not return them.
(b) If a coal flew off the Mizbe'ach, we do not return it.
(c) If limbs (of a Kosher Olah) flew off the Mizbe'ach before midnight, we return it, Me'ilah applies to it;
1. After midnight, we do not return it, Me'ilah does not apply.
(d) Just like the Mizbe'ach is Mekadesh what is fit for it, also the ramp;
(e) Just like the Mizbe'ach and ramp are Mekadesh what is fit for them, Kli Shares Mekadesh what is fit for them.
(f) (Gemara) Question: What is the case (of returning limbs)?
1. If proper meat remains, we should return even after midnight;
2. If proper meat does not remain, we should not return even before midnight!
(g) Answer: The Mishnah discusses Shriri (meat that became as hard as wood).
(h) Question: What is the source of this?
(i) Answer (#1) (Rav) Contradiction: It says that we Maktir "Kol ha'Laylah" - but it continues ("Kol ha'Laylah)...V'Herim (we take off the Mizbe'ach)"!
1. Answer: We divide the night into two halves - the first half is for Haktarah, the latter is for Haramah.
(j) Objection (Rav Kahana - Mishnah): Normally, Terumas ha'Deshen is done at Kros ha'Gever, or close to it; on Yom Kipur, it is done at midnight; on the festivals, it is done at the end of the first Ashmores (third of the night).
1. If mid'Oraisa, the first half is for Haktarah, we could not do Terumas ha'Deshen before midnight!
(k) Version #1 - Rashi - Answer (to the objection - R. Yochanan) Question: Since it says "Kol ha'Laylah", we know that this is until morning - why does it say "Ad Boker"?
1. Answer: This teaches that the transition from Haktarah to Haramah is before morning - the Torah did not fix the time, it allows Chachamim to decide the proper time;
(l) Version #2 - Tosfos - Answer #2 (R. Yochanan) Question: Since it says "Kol ha'Laylah", we know that this is until morning - why does it say "Ad Boker"?
1. ("Kol ha'Laylah" is Kosher for Haktarah (of things not yet consumed), and also for Haramah (of ashes)); "Ad ha'Boker" teaches that there is an intermediate time (for Shriri, which is mostly consumed);
2. Since the Torah did not specify, surely it is midnight (after which Shriri is considered consumed). (End of Version #2)
i. On a normal day, Terumas ha'Deshen is done at Kros ha'Gever;
ii. On Yom Kipur, it is done at midnight, to allow the Kohen Gadol time to rest (before Avodos ha'Yom; alternatively, other Kohanim prepare the Ma'arachah before dawn, in order that the Kohen Gadol can begin Avodos ha'Yom promptly at dawn);
iii. On the festivals, it is done at the end of the first Ashmores, for there is more Deshen, and the Azarah will be full of people before Kros ha'Gever.