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03-08-2011
Title:
Zevachim 87 - WHEN IS MEAT ON THE

Message:
1) WHEN IS MEAT ON THE "MIZBE'ACH" CONSIDERED "ME'UKAL"?

(a) (Rabah): If limbs came off (the Ma'arachah) before midnight and were returned after midnight, the following midnight is Ikul (considered final consumption (for Shriri));
(b) (Rav Chisda): Dawn is Ikul.
(c) (Bei Rav): Rav Chisda learns from a Kal va'Chomer - midnight does not Posel on account of Linah (Eimurim may be offered until dawn), yet it makes Ikul - dawn is Posel on account of Linah, all the more so it makes Ikul!
(d) If they came off before midnight and were returned after dawn, the following midnight is Ikul;
(e) (Rav Chisda): They will never have Ikul (until they become ashes).
(f) Objection (Rav Yosef): Why do they assume that midnight makes Ikul only for things on the Mizbe'ach - perhaps it makes Ikul everywhere!
(g) (Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael): Rav Yosef is correct (it makes Ikul everywhere).
(h) (R. Chiya bar Aba): If they came off before midnight and were returned after midnight, it is forbidden to benefit from them, there is no Me'ilah.
(i) (Bar Kapara): If they came off before midnight and were returned after midnight, there is no Me'ilah.
(j) Question (Rav Papa): Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael, R. Chiya bar Aba and Bar Kapara all agree with Rav Yosef - what do Rabah and Rav Chisda argue about (surely, they also agree with Rav Yosef)!
(k) Answer (Abaye): They argue about fatty limbs (even when they become hard, this is not Ikul, for the fat prevents them from becoming ashes.)
2) "LINAH" ON TOP OF THE "MIZBE'ACH"
(a) Question (Rava): Does Linah take effect on top of the Mizbe'ach?
1. Question: What is the case?
i. Suggestion: The limbs are still on top of the Mizbe'ach.
ii. Rejection: If regular Nosar, which was Lan on the floor of the Azarah, came on the Mizbe'ach, Lo Yered - all the more so, something which was Lan on the Mizbe'ach Lo Yered (this would be obvious to Rava!)
2. Answer: The case is, after Linah on the Mizbe'ach, it came down;
3. Perhaps we compare it to Linah on the Shulchan:
i. (Mishnah): Even if Lechem ha'Panim was on the Shulchan many days, we are not concerned. 4. Or, perhaps we compare it to Linah on the ground.
(b) Answer (Rabah): Linah does not take effect on top of the Mizbe'ach.
(c) Question: Did Rava accept the answer?
(d) Answer: We learn from the following (that he did not):
1. If limbs were Lan in the Azarah, they may be offered all night;
2. If they were Lan on the Mizbe'ach, they may be offered at any time;
3. (Rabah): If they were brought down, Ya'alu;
4. (Rava): If they were brought down, Lo Ya'alu.
3) CAN "KLEI SHARES" BE "MEKADESH"?
(a) (Mishnah): Just as the Mizbe'ach is Mekadesh...
(b) (Beraisa) Question: "Kol ha'Noge'a ba'Mizbe'ach (Yikdash)" - only teaches that the Mizbe'ach is Mekadesh (what touches it) - what is the source that the ramp is Mekadesh?
1. Answer: "Es ha'Mizbe'ach" (Shitah Mekubetzes - :El ha'Mizbe'ach Lo Ya'alu").
(c) Version #1 - Rashi - Question (Reish Lakish): Do Klei Shares Mekadesh Pesulim (so that they cannot be redeemed?)
(d) Answer (R. Yochanan - Mishnah): Just as the Mizbe'ach and ramp Mekadesh what is fit for them, also Klei Shares.
(e) Clarification of question (Reish Lakish): I meant, do they Mekadesh Pesulim to be offered l'Chatchilah!
(f) Answer (R. Yochanan - Mishnah): If Pesulim did Kabalah and Zerikah (was done, (ha'Eimurim) Lo Yerdu).
87b---------------------------------------87b

1. Suggestion: This means, both Kabalah and Zerikah were done by Pesulim (but if Kesherim did Zerikah, the Eimurim are offered l'Chatchilah, because the Kli Shares was Mekadesh the blood to be offered l'Chatchilah)!
(g) Rejection: No, it means, Kabalah *or* Zerikah was done by Pesulim.
(h) Version #2 - Tosfos - Question (Reish Lakish): If Pasul Kodshim are in a Kli Shares (on the Mizbe'ach), is this Mekadesh them (does Kedushas Mizbe'ach pass through the Kli)?
(i) Answer (R. Yochanan - Mishnah): Just as the Mizbe'ach and ramp Mekadesh what is fit for them, also Klei Shares.
(j) Clarification of question (Reish Lakish): I meant, are Klei Shares (*not* on the Mizbe'ach) Mekadesh Pesulim to be offered l'Chatchilah? (The Mishnah does not prove this, perhaps it discusses Kelim on the Mizbe'ach.)
(k) Answer (R. Yochanan - Mishnah): If Pesulim did Kabalah and Zerikah (was done, Lo Yered).
1. Inference: 'Zerikah was done' connotes b'Diavad - l'Chatchilah, since Kabalah was Pasul, Zerikah should not have been done (even though the blood was in a Kli Shares)!
(l) Rejection: No, it means, Kabalah *or* Zerikah was done by Pesulim (ha'Eimurim Lo Yerdu - but if Kabalah was by Pesulim, we are Zorek l'Chatchilah, for the Kli is Mekadesh the blood). (End of Version #2)
4) AIRSPACE OF THE "MIZBE'ACH"
(a) Question: Is the airspace above the Mizbe'ach like the Mizbe'ach (to Mekadesh)?
(b) Answer (Mishnah): Just as the Mitzvah is Mekadesh, the ramp is Mekadesh;
1. If the airspace is not like the Mizbe'ach, also the air above the ramp is not (Mekadesh like the) ramp - if so, Kidush of the ramp would never help, for once the Kodesh is lifted off the ramp, it has been taken down from the (Kedushah of) the Mizbe'ach;
2. Once it was Yarad, Lo Ya'aleh!
(c) Rejection: Really, the airspace is not like the Mizbe'ach - the case is, the Kodesh (e.g. a limb) was rolled up to the Mizbe'ach, it was never lifted off the ramp.
(d) Question: But there is a gap between the ramp and the Mizbe'ach (when it was over the gap, it was Yarad)!
(e) Answer: (The limb is more than twice the length of the gap;) when the majority is over the ramp, it is as if it is totally over the ramp; when the majority is over the Mizbe'ach, it is as if it is totally over the Mizbe'ach.
(f) Question: (We do not consider the part of the limb in the gap by itself, rather, the entire limb has one law -) this should resolve the (unresolved) question of Rami bar Chama!
1. Question (Rami bar Chama): Are Olim (Kodshei Mizbe'ach) considered connected?
(g) Answer: Indeed, we can say that the airspace is not like the Mizbe'ach, and Olim are considered connected! (Rami never resolved his question, for he was also unsure about airspace of the Mizbe'ach.)
(h) Objection (Rabah bar Rav Chanan): Surely, the airspace is not like the Mizbe'ach - if it was, how would intent Chutz li'Zmano Posel Olas ha'Of?!
1. Since it is considered to be on the Mizbe'ach, even after Linah, Lo Yered;
2. Since Haktarah is permitted at any time, intent for the next (or any other) day should not Posel!
(i) Answer (Rav Simi Bar Ashi): We can say, the intent was to take it down the next day, and then Lehaktir (once it was Yarad, Lo Ya'aleh, this is forbidden).
(j) Question: This is like Rava, who says that Linah applies on top of the Mizbe'ach;
1. But according to Rabah, who says that Linah does not apply on top of the Mizbe'ach; also this is permitted - how can we answer?
(k) Answer: The case is, he intended to take it down before dawn and Lehaktir the next day (Linah applies, since it is not on the Mizbe'ach at dawn).

   
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