Post A Note
Ask The Rabbi
Torah Study
Miracles
My613
Kitzurdaf
Chat Room
World News
One Minute Joke
Famous Quotes

Free Advertisements
FREE CLASSIFIEDS

Hakol b'yday Shemayim Chutx m'Yiras Shemayim

 
 


Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups

Username:   Password:

Create new account - Forgot username or password?


Kitzurdaf

Back - Print Page

04-28-2011
Title:
Menachos 50 - IF A TAMID OR KETORES WAS OMITTED

Message:
1) IF A TAMID OR KETORES WAS OMITTED

(a) (Mishnah): If the morning Tamid was not offered, the afternoon Tamid is offered...(if the morning Ketores was not offered, it is offered in the afternoon;) R. Shimon says, the full daily amount is offered in the afternoon, because the inner Mizbe'ach must be inaugurated with Ketores (the outer Mizbe'ach must be inaugurated with a morning Tamid.)
(b) Question: Why does R. Shimon mention Chanuchas ha'Mizbe'ach - the first Tana did not mention it!
(c) Answer: The Mishnah is abbreviated, it means as follows:
1. If the morning Tamid was not offered, they do not offer in the afternoon;
2. This is only if the (outer) Mizbe'ach was never inaugurated - if it was, they offer in the afternoon.
3. R. Shimon says, this is only if they did not offer on account of Ones or Shogeg;
i. If they did not offer b'Mezid, they do not offer in the afternoon.
4. If the morning Ketores was not offered, Ketores is offered in the afternoon.
(d) Question: What is the source of this?
(e) Answer (Beraisa): "V'Es ha'Keves *ha'Sheni* Ta'aseh Bein ha'Arbayim" - the first Tamid of the day may not be offered in the afternoon;
1. This is only if the Mizbe'ach was never inaugurated - if it was, the first may be offered in the afternoon;
2. R. Shimon says, this is only if they were Anusim or Shogegim - if they were Mezidim, they do not offer in the afternoon.
3. If the morning Ketores was not offered, Ketores is offered in the afternoon.
(f) Question: We should not Mevatel the Mizbe'ach (from the afternoon Tamid) just because Kohanim transgressed!
(g) Answer (Rava): R. Shimon means, the Kohanim who transgressed (Rashba - the Mishmar) do not offer in the afternoon, others do.
(h) Regarding Ketores, there is no such fine - since there is less opportunity to offer it (it may not be brought for Nedavah), and the Kohen who offers it is blessed with wealth, Kohanim were zealous to offer it.
(i) (Mishnah - R. Shimon): They offer the full amount in the afternoon, because the inner Mizbe'ach must be inaugurated with Ketores in the afternoon.
(j) Contradiction (Beraisa): Chinuch must be with Ketores in the morning.
(k) Answer: Tana'im argue about this.
(l) (Abaye): The opinion that Chinuch is in the afternoon is more reasonable - it says "Ba'Boker ba'Boker b'Heitivo Es ha'Neiros Yaktirenah";
1. If the Menorah was not lit the previous afternoon, there would be no need to fix the lamps in the morning (and the afternoon Ketores is offered at the time of Hadlakas ha'Menorah.)
(m) The opinion that Chinuch is in the morning learns from the outer Mizbe'ach, which is inaugurated with the morning Tamid.
(n) (Mishnah): The Shulchan must be inaugurated with Lechem ha'Panim on Shabbos.
(o) Question: This implies that Lechem ha'Panim may not inaugurate the Shulchan on a weekday, but the bread would become Kodesh (and this is false!)
(p) Answer: No, the Mishnah teaches that Chinuch and Kidush must both be on Shabbos.
(q) Support (continuation of the Mishnah): The Menorah must be inaugurated through Hadlakas ha'Neiros in the afternoon (Hadlakas ha'Neiros is exclusively in the afternoon.)
2) ONE MAY NOT VOLUNTEER KETORES
(a) (Beraisa): This is the Ketores that an individual offered on the outer Mizbe'ach, it was a Hora'as Sha'ah (a special temporary ruling.)
(b) Question: What does this refer to?
(c) Answer (Rav Papa): It refers to the Ketores the Nesi'im offered (during Chanukas ha'Mizbe'ach.)
(d) Inference #1: Normally, an individual may not offer Ketores on the outer Mizbe'ach, but he may offer on the inner Mizbe'ach!
(e) Inference #2: Normally, an individual may not offer Ketores on the outer Mizbe'ach, but the Tzibur may!
(f) Contradiction (Beraisa) Suggestion: Perhaps an individual may bring a Nedavah of Ketores - "Motza Sefasecha Tishmor v'Asisa"!
1. Rejection: "Lo Sa'alu Alav Ketores Zarah".
2. Suggestion: Perhaps an individual may not bring Ketores Nedavah because he does not bring Ketores Chovah, but the Tzibur may, for it brings Chovah!
50b---------------------------------------50b

3. Rejection: "Lo Sa'alu" (the plural addresses the Tzibur.)
4. Suggestion: Perhaps the Tzibur may not offer Ketores Nedavah on the inner Mizbe'ach, but it may offer on the outer Mizbe'ach!
5. Rejection: "...V'Es Ketores ha'Samim la'Kodesh k'Chol Asher Tzivisicha Ya'asu" - we may bring only what the Torah mentions.
(g) Answer (Rav Papa): Answer: The Mishnah teaches a bigger Chidush:
1. Not only is the Tzibur forbidden to offer (Ketores) on the outer Mizbe'ach, and individuals are forbidden to offer on the inner Mizbe'ach - there is no precedent for either of these;
2. Even individuals are forbidden to offer on the outer Mizbe'ach, even though the Nesi'im did so - that was a Hora'as Sha'ah.
3) CHAVITIM MUST BE HALF OF A WHOLE KORBAN
(a) (Mishnah): Chavitei Kohen Gadol (his daily Minchah) are not brought (to the Mikdash) half at a time - rather, he brings a full Isaron (of flour) and divides it, half is offered in the morning, half in the afternoon.
(b) If the Kohen Gadol died after offering half in the morning and a new Kohen Gadol was appointed, the latter may not bring (just) half, nor may he bring the half remaining from the previous Kohen;
1. Rather, he brings a full Isaron and divides it, he offers half and the other half is lost (must be burned);
2. On this day, two halves are offered, and two are lost.
(c) (Gemara - Beraisa): Had it said 'Minchah Machtzis', one might have thought that he brings half an Isaron (to the Mikdash) in the morning and offers it, and brings half an Isaron in the afternoon and offers it;
1. Rather, it says "Machatzisah ba'Boker u'Machatzisah ba'Erev" - he offers half taken from a full Korban.
2. He brings a full Isaron and divides it, he offers half in the morning, half in the afternoon.
3. Suggestion: If the half left for the afternoon became Tamei or was lost, perhaps he may bring half an Isaron and offer it!
4. Rejection: "Machatzisah ba'Boker u'Machatzisah ba'Erev" - he offers half taken from a full Korban;
i. He brings a full Isaron and divides it, he offers half and the other half is lost - on this day, two halves are offered, two are lost.
5. Suggestion: If the Kohen Gadol died after offering half in the morning and a new Kohen was appointed, perhaps he may bring half, or the half remaining from the previous Kohen!
6. Rejection: *U*'Machatzisah ba'Erev" - he offers half taken from a full Korban;
i. He brings a full Isaron and divides it, he offers half and the other half is lost - on this day, two halves are offered, two are lost.
(d) (A reciter of Beraisos): The halves that are lost are burned in Beis ha'Sereifah after (it becomes Nosar, i.e.) Ibur Tzurah.
(e) Question (Rav Nachman): Granted, the first extra half requires Ibur Tzurah, for it was once fitting to be offered - but the second extra half should be burned right away, from the beginning it was destined to be burned!
(f) Answer #1 (Rav Nachman): Your Beraisa is like Tana d'vei Rabah bar Avuha, who says that even Pigul (a very stringent Isur) requires Ibur Tzurah.
(g) Answer #2 (Rav Ashi): The Beraisa is even like Chachamim (who say that Pigul is burned right away) - when the second Isaron was separated, either half was fitting to be the half offered.
4) HOW CHAVITIM ARE MADE
(a) Question: How are Chavitim made?
(b) Answer #1 (R. Chiya bar Aba): They are baked, then they are fried.
(c) Answer #2 (R. Asi): They are fried, then they are baked.
(d) Support (R. Chiya bar Aba, for himself): "Tufinei" - Te'afenah (bake it) Na'eh (nicely - if they are fried first, it will be black on account of the oil or pan);
(e) Support (R. Asi, for himself): "Tufinei" - bake them Na (when they are half-cooked, i.e. they are slightly fried first.)
(f) Tana'im argue as R. Chiya and R. Asi argue.
1. (Beraisa): "Tufinei" - bake them Na;
2. Rebbi says, bake them Na'eh
3. R. Yosi says, "Tufinei" (plural) - bake them a lot;
i. He holds that they are baked Na and Na'eh.
(g) (Mishnah): Chavitim are kneaded, arranged (into loaves) and baked inside (the Azarah), all of these are Docheh (override) Shabbos.
(h) Question: What is the source of this?
(i) Answer #1 (Rav Huna): "Tufinei" - bake them Na'eh;
1. If they were baked from before Shabbos, they would become bloated, they would not be nice.
(j) Objection (Rav Yosef): They could be baked before Shabbos and covered with vegetables, they would not become bloated!
(k) Answer #2 (Tana d'vei R. Yishmael): "(Al Machavas ba'Shemen) Te'aseh" - even on Shabbos, even b'Tum'ah (if they cannot be done b'Taharah.)
(l) Answer #3 (Abaye): "Soles Minchas Tamid" - Chavitim are like Minchas Tamid (which is Docheh Shabbos.)
(m) Answer #4 (Rava): "Al Machavas" - this teaches that they must be cooked in a Kli Shares;
1. The Kli is Mekadesh, therefore if they were cooked the previous day, they would be Nifsalim on account of Linah.

   
| Chesed club | How to get started | Guide for the Shomrim | Short Prayer | In English |
| Short Prayer In Hebrew | 10 Rules Of Shmiras | Haloshon | Hebrew/English |

ChesedClub
851 N.E. 182 Tr
N.M.B. Fl. 33162
305.491.1326 Cell
786.999.0282 Fax

E-Mail: samtamir@gmail.com