Menachos 54 - USING APPLES TO FERMENT
1) USING APPLES TO FERMENT
(a) (Beraisa): We do not use (R. Gershom - juice of) apples to ferment (Shtei ha'Lechem or Lachmei Todah);
(b) R. Chanina ben Gamliel (according to Rav Kahana - R. Chanina ben Tradyon) says, we may use it.
(c) Question: Who is the Tana of the following Mishnah?
1. (Mishnah): If a Terumah apple was minced and put into a dough and fermented it, it is forbidden (to Zarim).
2. Suggestion: It is like R. Chanina.
(d) Answer (and rejection of suggestion): It is even like Chachamim - granted, it does not become proper Chametz, it does become Chametz Nuksheh (lowly Chametz; R. Gershom - a hardened dough, it is neither Matzah nor Chametz; Aruch - Chametz that fermented without Se'or.)
(e) (R. Ila): The hardest Kemitzah is of Minchas Chotei (it is pure flour, when wiping away the excess sticking out (of the three middle fingers) extra flour is prone to fall out.)
(f) (R. Yitzchak bar Avodimi): (It is not hard -) Minchas Chotei may be kneaded with water.
(g) Suggestion: R. Ila is concerned for the original volume (if we would add water, the Kometz would lack (or have an excess of) the difference in volume of the dough taken and its flour), R. Yitzchak follows the current volume (exactly a Kometz is taken, we are not concerned that it includes water.)
(h) Rejection: No, all follow the original volume;
1. Minchas Chotei is called Chareivah (dry) - R. Ila explains, it may not have any liquid at all, R. Yitzchak says, it has no oil (unlike regular Menachos), but it may have water.
2) INCREASE AND DECREASE OF VOLUME
(a) (Mishnah): If calf meat swelled or if meat of an old animal shriveled, we judge them l'Kemos she'Hen (according to their original volume).
(b) (Rav (and R. Chiya...)): (The text is) *Kemos* she'Hen (according to their current volume).
(c) (Shmuel (and R. Shimon bar Rebbi...)): (The text is) *l'Kemos* she'Hen.
(d) Question (against Shmuel - Beraisa): If calf meat was less than the Shi'ur for (Kabalas) Tum'ah (i.e. k'Beitzah (an egg's worth); some explain, the Shi'ur is to become Hechshar Lekabel Tum'ah; some say it is to Metamei other food), and swelled to the Shi'ur, it is retroactively Tahor (i.e. regarding Tum'os before it swelled) and Tamei for the future.
(e) Answer: Mid'Rabanan it is Tamei for the future (mid'Oraisa, it is Tahor.)
(f) Question (end of the Beraisa): The same applies to Pigul and Nosar.
1. If mid'Oraisa we follow the current volume (for the future), this teaches that one is Chayav Kares for eating a k'Zayis of swelled Pigul or Nosar;
2. But if we follow the current volume mid'Rabanan, we cannot say that Chachamim are Mechayev Kares for (swelled) Pigul or Nosar!
(g) Answer: It means, the same applies to Tum'ah of Pigul and Nosar:
1. One might have thought that since Tum'as Pigul and Nosar is only mid'Rabanan, they did not apply another mid'Rabanan stringency (of following the current volume) to it - the Beraisa teaches they apply the stringency.
(h) Question (against Shmuel - Beraisa): If meat of an old animal was a Shi'ur, and shriveled to less than a Shi'ur, it is retroactively Tamei and Tahor for the future.
(i) Answer: (Rabah): (The argument of the Amora'im is not as we assumed.) All agree that if at first there was a Shi'ur and now there is not, (for the future) we follow the present;
1. All agree that if at first there was not a Shi'ur and now there is, we follow the present *mid'Rabanan*;
2. They argue when there was a Shi'ur, it shriveled to less than a Shi'ur, and then returned to its original size:
i. Shmuel holds that Dichuy applies to Isurim (and Tum'os; since one was not liable for it when it was shriveled, one will never be liable for it again);
ii. Rav holds that Dichuy does not apply to Isurim.
(j) Question: Does anyone really hold that Dichuy applies to Isurim?!
1. (Mishnah): If k'Beitzah (an egg's worth) of food, or a k'Zayis of Tum'as Mes or Neveilah, or a lentil's worth of a Sheretz was left in the sun and it shriveled to less than a Shi'ur, it loses its Tum'ah (i.e. ability to Metamei); if a k'Zayis of Chelev shriveled to less than a Shi'ur, one is not liable for it for eating Pigul, Nosar or Chelev;
2. If it was left in the rain and returned to its original size, it is again Tamei/one is liable for eating it.
3. This refutes anyone who holds that Dichuy applies to Isurim (e.g. Shmuel, according to Rabah.)
3) TAKING "TERUMAH" ACCORDING TO VOLUME OR NUMBER
(a) Question (against - Beraisa): If one is Torem (designates Terumah or Ma'aser) dates (this refers to moist dates, unless specified 'dry') on (i.e. to exempt) dried dates, one tithes according to the number (even though dry dates are now less than their original volume).
1. This is like Shmuel, who says that we follow the original volume;
2. But according to Rav, who says that we follow the current volume, a tenth of the number is more than a tenth of the volume, this is too much Ma'aser!
i. (Mishnah): If one takes too much Ma'aser, the produce he wanted to exempt is indeed exempt, but the Ma'aser must be fixed (only 10% becomes Ma'aser, it is mixed with Tevel, i.e. the excess above 10%.)
3. Counter-question: If we follow the original volume, the Seifa is difficult!
4. (Seifa of Beraisa): To Torem dry dates on dates, one tithes according to the volume.
i. This is like Rav, who says that we follow the current volume;
ii. But according to Shmuel, who says that we follow the original volume, this is too much!
(b) Answer #1 (to both questions): The Beraisa discusses Terumah Gedolah, in both cases he tithes generously (regarding Terumah Gedolah, this is praiseworthy.)
(c) Objection (Seifa of Beraisa - R. Elazar b'Rebbi Yosi): My father would take 10 dry dates to exempt 90 moist dates.
1. It is not normal to take a tenth for Terumah Gedolah, surely this was Ma'aser!
(d) Answer #2: The Beraisa is like R. Elazar ben Gomel:
1. (R. Elazar ben Gomel): "V'Nechshav Lachem Trumaschem (ka'Dagan Min ha'Goren)" - the verse discusses (and equates) two Terumos, Terumah Gedolah and Terumas Ma'aser:
i. Just like Terumah Gedolah is taken by estimation and may be designated with mere intent (without an action or words), also Terumas Ma'aser;
ii. Just like Terumah Gedolah may be taken generously (one may take a lot, even though any amount suffices), also Terumas Ma'aser.