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05-25-2011
Title:
Menachos 76 - ROLLING AND BEATING

Message:
1) ROLLING AND BEATING "MENACHOS"

(a) (Mishnah): All Menachos must be rolled 300 times and beaten 500 times;
(b) These are done to the wheat;
(c) R. Yosi says, (they are done) to the dough.
(d) R. Yehudah says, all Menachos are baked into 10 loaves (or wafers), except for Lechem ha'Panim and Chavitim, which are 12;
(e) R. Meir says, all are baked into 12 loaves, except for Lachmei (the breads brought with) Todah or Ayil Nazir, which are 10 (of each kind of bread.)
(f) (Gemara - Beraisa): One rolls once, beats twice, rolls twice and beats three times; this is repeated 100 times, in all 300 rolls and 500 beats.
(g) Question (R. Yirmeyah): Is rolling outward and back counted as one roll or two?
(h) This question is not resolved.
(i) (Mishnah): Rolling and beating are done to the wheat; R. Yosi says, to the dough.
(j) Question: Does R. Yosi mean, they must be done to the dough, not to the wheat - or, they may be done to the dough *or* to the wheat?
(k) Answer (Beraisa): Rolling and beating are done to the wheat; R. Yosi says, rolling and beating are done to the dough. (If he meant *or* to the dough, he would not have repeated 'rolling and beating'.)
2) THE NUMBER OF LOAVES
(a) (Mishnah - R. Yehudah): All Menachos...except for Lechem ha'Panim and Chavitim, which are 12.
(b) Regarding Lechem ha'Panim, it explicitly says that they are 12 loaves; we learn Chavitim from a Gezerah Shavah "Chukah-Chukah" from Lechem ha'Panim.
(c) Question: What is R. Yehudah's source that other Menachos are 10?
(d) Answer: He learns from Lachmei Todah, which are 10 (of each variety.)
(e) Question: Why not learn 12 from Lechem ha'Panim?
(f) Answer: It is more reasonable to learn from Lachmei Todah, for they resemble (regular) Menachos in the following ways:
1. They are brought by individuals, they are voluntary, they contain oil, they are Nifsalim (through Linah if left overnight), they are not brought on Shabbos or b'Tum'ah.
(g) Question: Perhaps we should rather learn from Lechem ha'Panim, for it resembles Menachos in the following ways:
1. They are Kodshei Kodoshim, Levonah is brought with them, they are totally Matzah, they are brought on account of themselves.
(h) Answer: There are more similarities to Lachmei Todah.
(i) Question: If something learned from a Gezerah Shavah can teach about something else through a Binyan Av (the Gemara in Zevachim never resolved this question), we should learn 12 from Chavitim! (Rashi - we would learn from a Mah Matzinu.)
(j) Answer: It is more reasonable to learn from Lachmei Todah, for they resemble Menachos in the following ways:
1. They are brought by commoners, they are voluntary, they are not brought half at a time, Pigul applies to them, they are not brought on Shabbos, or b'Tum'ah.
(k) Question: We should rather learn from Chavitim, for they have more similarities to Menachos!
1. They consist of one Isaron of Soles, they must be brought in a Kli Shares (alternatively - a Kli is Mekadesh them, whereas slaughter of a Todah is Mekadesh its bread), they are Kodshei Kodoshim, Levonah is brought with them, they are totally Matzah, they are brought on account of themselves, Hagashah is done, they are (at least partially) burned on the Mizbe'ach.
(l) Answer: R. Yehudah learns Menachos of commoners from those of commoners - this outweighs the similarities to Chavitim.
(m) (Mishnah - R. Meir): All are baked into 12 loaves...
(n) Question: What is his reason?
(o) Answer: If he holds that something learned from a Gezerah Shavah can teach through a Binyan Av, he learns from Chavitim (for they have more similarities to Menachos than Lachmei Todah);
1. If he holds that it cannot teach through a Binyan Av, he learns from Lechem ha'Panim - even though it has less similarities to Menachos than Lachmei Todah, we learn Kodshei Kodoshim from Kodshei Kodoshim, this outweighs the similarities to Lachmei Todah.
(p) (Mishnah): Except for the Lachmei Todah or Nazir, which are 10.
(q) The Torah clearly teaches that there are 10 loaves of each kind of Lachmei Todah;
(r) Regarding Todah it says "Shelamav" to include Ayil Nazir (its breads resemble Lachmei Todah regarding the amount of Soles and the number of each kind of bread.)
3) TOO MANY OR TOO FEW LOAVES
(a) (Rav Tuvi bar Kisna): If one baked Lachmei Todah into four loaves, he fulfilled his obligation.
(b) Question: But one of (the 10 loaves of) each of the four varieties must be made Terumah (and given to the Kohen!)
1. Suggestion: Perhaps a piece of each is broken off to be Terumah.
2. Rejection: "Echad" - one must give a whole loaf!
(c) Answer: The case is, Terumah was separated during the kneading (the four Terumos were baked by themselves - Rav Tuvi only counts the (four) loaves kept by the Yisrael. Sfas Emes - there were 10 doughs of Chametz, after one was made Terumah, the other nine were combined to make one loaf; the same applies to each of the three kinds of Matzah.)
(d) Question (Beraisa): If any Minchah was baked into too many or too few loaves, it is Kosher, except for Lechem ha'Panim, Chavitim, Lachmei Todah and Nazir.
(e) Answer: Rav Tuvi holds like the following Tana:
76b---------------------------------------76b

1. (Beraisa): If any Minchah was baked into too many or too few loaves, it is Kosher, except for Lechem ha'Panim or Chavitim;
2. Some say, also Lachmei Todah and Nazir (are exceptions.)
(f) (Rav Huna): If one baked Ma'afe Tanur into one loaf, he fulfilled his obligation;
1. This is because regarding Ma'afe Tanur, "Matzos" is written without a 'Vov', like 'Matzas' (singular).
(g) Question (Rav Papa): If so, if one baked (all the flour for one type of) Lachmei Todah into one loaf, he should not fulfill his obligation, for there "Matzos" is written with a 'Vov' - but Rav Tuvi taught that he fulfills his obligation!
(h) Answer: Rav Huna argues with Rav Tuvi.
4) SIFTING TO GET "SOLES" FOR "MENACHOS"
(a) (Mishnah): The Omer consists of an Isaron (of Soles sifted) from three Sa'im (of flour);
(b) Shtei ha'Lechem is made from two Esronim from three Sa'im;
(c) Lechem ha'Panim is made from 24 Esronim of Soles from 24 Sa'im.
(d) (Gemara) Question: What is the reason (why different amounts of Soles are sifted from a Se'ah for these Korbanos?)
(e) Answer: The Omer is sifted from Chadash barley, which contains much bran, three Sa'im are needed to get a choice Isaron;
1. Shtei ha'Lechem is sifted from Chadash wheat, which contains less bran, two choice Esronim come from three Sa'im;
2. The wheat for Lechem ha'Panim may be old, which has even less bran, a choice Isaron comes from a Se'ah.
(f) (Beraisa): If too much or too little Soles was used for a Minchah, it is Pasul;
1. If it was sifted from too much or too little flour, it is Kosher.
(g) (Mishnah): The Omer was sifted in 13 sieves, Shtei ha'Lechem in 12, Lechem ha'Panim in 11;
(h) R. Shimon says, there is no fixed amount, it must be sifted as much as necessary;
1. We learn from "V'Lakachta Soles v'Afisa".
(i) (Gemara - Beraisa): They would sift in a fine sieve (it retains (the grains which will be ground again to make) Soles and bran, and lets (regular quality) flour pass through), then in a coarse (large-holed) sieve (it retains bran, and lets Soles and flour pass through), then in a fine sieve, in a coarse sieve...
(j) (Rashi - there were only two sieves; Rashi Kesav Yad - there were 13, each fine sieve was coarser than the previous fine sieve (flour retained by the former would pass through the latter), each coarse sieve was finer than the previous coarse sieve (the latter would retain bran that passed through the former.))
(k) R. Shimon ben Elazar says, there were 13 sieves one above the other; the top one retains bran, the bottom retains (grains for) Soles (and lets flour pass through. Rashi Kesav Yad - he does not argue, he only explains the first Tana; Rashi - he holds that each sifter was finer than the one above.)
(l) R. Shimon says, there is no fixed amount...
(m) (Beraisa): "Soles v'Afisa Oso" - this teaches that one may buy Soles (already sifted, for the sake of Lechem ha'Panim);
1. Question: What is the source that one may buy wheat (and sift it?)
2. Answer: "V'Lakachta" - in any case.
3. Suggestion: Perhaps this applies to other Menachos!
4. Rejection: "Osah" - it is permitted only for Lechem ha'Panim, to save money (Soles is more expensive than wheat; this is felt most regarding Lechem ha'Panim, for much Soles is needed, and it is brought every week.)
5. Question: Why is this a consideration?
6. Answer (R. Elazar): The Torah is concerned for the money of Yisrael.
7. Question: Where does the Torah show this concern?
8. Answer: "V'Hishkisa Es ha'Edah v'Es Be'iram". (Hash-m gave water for the people and their animals.)

   
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