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05-25-2011
Title:
Menachos 80 - DO

Message:
1) DO "KORBANOS" ON ACCOUNT OF "TODAH" REQUIRE BREAD?

(a) (R. Chanina citing R. Yochanan): This law (Korbanos on account of Todah are offered without bread) only applies after Kaparah (Zerikah of the Todah) - if offered before Kaparah, they require bread.
(b) Question (Rav Amram): Which case does he discuss?
(c) Answer #1: He discusses Chalifah of Todas Chovah (one who vowed to bring a Todah.)
(d) Rejection: This is no Chidush - our Mishnah explicitly teaches after Kaparah, the Beraisa teaches before Kaparah!
(e) Answer #2: He discusses Chalifah of Todas Nedavah (one who designated an animal to be a Todah.)
(f) Rejection: Surely, this requires bread even after Kaparah - since there was no obligation to bring another Korban, surely the Chalifah was Hukdash to be another Todah!
(g) Answer #3: He discusses Vlad Todas Nedavah.
(h) Rejection: Surely, this does not require bread even before Kaparah, it is like Mosar Todah (excess money Hukdash for Todah, i.e. a Todah was bought for less than the amount Hukdash!)
(i) Answer #4: He discusses Vlad Todas Chovah - it requires bread only if offered before Kaparah (i.e. before its mother was offered.)
(j) Question: What is the Chidush?
(k) Answer: R. Yochanan teaches that one may get atonement through Shevach Hekdesh (something that grew from Hekdesh, e.g. a calf.)
(l) Abaye asked the same question as Rav Amram, and reached the same conclusion.
(m) R. Yitzchak bar Yosef also taught like R. Chanina and Abaye.
1. (R. Yitzchak bar Yosef): Chalifas Todas Nedavah requires bread whether brought before or after Kaparah - surely it was Hukdash to be another Todah!
2. Vlad Todas Nedavah does not require bread even before Kaparah, it is like Mosar Todah.
3. Vlad Todas Chovah requires bread only if offered before Kaparah.
2) PARALLEL CASES OF "TODAH" AND "CHATAS"
(a) (Shmuel): Any case in which a Chatas must die (a tradition from Sinai teaches five cases when it is Nidcheh, it cannot be offered nor redeemed), a corresponding case of Todah is offered without bread;
1. Any case in which a Chatas is Ro'eh, a corresponding case of Todah is offered with bread.
(b) Question (Rav Amram - Beraisa): What is the source that if a Todah was lost, a replacement was designated, and the Todah was found, either may be offered l'Shem Todah with bread?
1. Answer: 'Ha'Todah Yakriv'.
2. Suggestion: Perhaps the second animal to be offered also requires bread!
3. Rejection: "Yakrivenu" - only one requires bread.
4. Crux of question: The corresponding case of Chatas is Ro'eh (according to Chachamim)!
5. (Mishnah - Rebbi): If a Chatas was Hukdash and became lost, a replacement was designated, and the Chatas was found, either may be offered, the other must die;
6. Chachamim say, the Chatas must die only if it was found after (the replacement was offered for) Kaparah.
7. Inference: If it was found before Kaparah, it is Ro'eh!
(c) Answer #1: Shmuel holds like Rebbi, who says that also in this case the Chatas must die.
1. Question: (Shmuel said that whenever Chatas is Ro'eh, Todah is offered with bread -) according to Rebbi, when is a Chatas Ro'eh?
2. Answer: It is Ro'eh is the following case:
i. (R. Oshaya): If two Chata'os were separated for Acharayos (in case one will be lost, the other will be offered; Tosfos - he did not Makdish both, he said that one is Hekdesh, he did not specify which), he may offer either one, the other is Ro'eh.
(d) Rejection: The corresponding case of Todah does not require bread!
(e) Answer #2: Shmuel holds like R. Shimon, who says that five Chatas must die (in every case of Chalifah, one is offered and the other dies.)
(f) Question: R. Shimon holds that there is no case of Ro'eh!
(g) Correction: Shmuel only said that whenever Chatas must die, Todah is offered without bread (he did not discuss when a Chatas is Ro'eh.)
(h) Question: What is the Chidush?
(i) Answer: He argues with R. Yochanan, who says that one may get atonement through Shevach Hekdesh (Shmuel teaches that Vlad Todah is offered without bread.)
3) REPLACING A LOST "TODAH"
(a) (R. Aba): If one said 'This is a Todah, this is its bread':
1. If the bread was lost, he brings other bread in its place;
2. If the Todah was lost, he may not bring another Todah with the bread (the bread must be burned.)
(b) Question: What is the reason?
(c) Answer: The bread is Gelal (on account of, i.e. secondary to) the Todah, but not vice-versa.
(d) (Rava): If money was Hukdash for Todah and not all was needed, the remainder may be used to buy the bread;
80b---------------------------------------80b

1. If money was Hukdash for the bread and some was left over, it may not be used it to buy the Todah.
(e) Question: What is the reason?
(f) Answer #1: We learn from Rav Kahana's teaching.
1. (Rav Kahana) Question: What is the source that Lachmei Todah are called 'Todah'?
2. Answer: "V'Hikriv Al Zevach ha'Todah Chalos Matzos".
3. Question: If so, it should also be permitted to use excess money Hukdash for the bread to buy the Todah!
4. Answer: Lachmei Todah are called Todah, but Todah is not called Lechem.
(g) (Rava): If a Todah was Hukdash and it was lost, a replacement was Hukdash and lost, a third animal was Hukdash, and the first two were found (all three are here):
1. If the owner gets Kaparah through the first (offers it first), the second does not require bread, the third requires bread (for it is not Chalifas Todah, rather, it is Chalifas Chalifas Todah);
2. If he gets Kaparah through the third, the second does not require bread, the first requires bread;
3. If he gets Kaparah through the second, the first and third do not require bread.
(h) (Abaye): No matter which he offers first, the others do not require bread, for all are Chalifos of each other.
(i) (R. Zeira): The same applies to Chata'os - if a Chatas was Hukdash and lost, another was Hukdash and lost, and a third was Hukdash, and the first two were found:
1. If he gets Kaparah through the first (or third), the second must die, the third (or first) is Ro'eh (it is not Chalifas Chatas);
2. If he gets Kaparah through the second, the others must die.
(j) (Abaye): No matter which he offers, the others must die.
(k) Question: What is the Chidush? (Surely, the same applies to Chatas!) (l) Answer: One might have thought, only regarding Todah two can be offered with bread, for it is possible to Makdish more Todos, but since one cannot Makdish an extra Chatas, in all cases the others must die - R. Zeira teaches, this is not so.
4) A "TODAH" MIXED WITH ITS "TEMURAH"
(a) (R. Chiya): If a Todah became mixed with its Temurah and one of them died, there is no way to offer the remaining animal:
1. We cannot offer it with bread, perhaps it is the Temurah;
2. We cannot offer it without bread, perhaps it is the Todah!
(b) Question: What is the case?
1. If he said "Alai Todah", he is obligated to bring another animal and bread - he can stipulate!
i. He says, if the remaining animal is the Temurah, the new animal is a Todah, this is its bread;
ii. If the remaining animal is the Todah, the new animal is Acharayos for the Todah (will be offered in place of it if the Todah will be lost), the bread is for the Todah. (If the Todah is not lost, the Acharayos is offered and eaten like a Todah, but without bread.)
(c) Answer: The case is, he said 'This is a Todah' (so there is no Acharayos, he cannot do like above.)
(d) Question #1 (Levi; Tosfos - a different Talmid): Why can't he offer the remaining animal with bread, and stipulate:
1. If this is the Todah, this is its bread; if not, the bread is Chulin!
(e) Answer (Rebbi): It is forbidden to bring Chulin into the Azarah.
(f) Question #2: Why can't he bring another animal with bread, and stipulate:
1. If the remaining animal is the Temurah, this is a Todah and its bread;
2. If the remaining animal is the Todah, the new animal is a Shelamim!
(g) Answer (Rebbi): It is forbidden to cause Kodshim to be wasted (perhaps the new animal will not be eaten before morning, we will have to burn it, since we are in doubt, perhaps it is a Todah (but in reality, it is a Shelamim, and should be eaten!) R. Gershom - perhaps someone will burn it on the second day, even though in reality, it is still permitted.)
(h) Question #3 (Levi): Why can't he bring another animal with bread, and stipulate:
1. If the remaining animal is the Temurah, this is a Todah and its bread;
2. If the remaining animal is the Todah, the new animal is Mosar Todah (which may be eaten only until morning, like Todah!)
(i) Answer (Rebbi): That is an absurd question! We do not bring Mosar l'Chatchilah!

   
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