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08-02-2011
Title:
Menachos 91 - WHICH

Message:
1) WHICH "KORBANOS" REQUIRE "NESACHIM"? (Cont.)

(a) (Beraisa): What is the source that Todah requires Nesachim? "*O* Zevach".
(b) Question: (Why must we learn from 'O' -) Todah is also a Zevach! (It is slaughtered; Rashba - it says, "Zevach Todas Shelamav".)
(c) Answer: One might have thought, since breads are brought with Todah, it is not considered a Zevach (alternatively - the bread is in place of Nesachim.)
(d) Question: Why would we think that Todah is different than Ayil Nazir, which is accompanied by bread and Nesachim?
(e) Answer: One might have thought that Ayil Nazir requires Nesachim because it is accompanied by only two kinds of breads, but Todah does not require Nesachim, because it is accompanied by four kinds.
(f) Question: Why isn't "Lefalei Neder O vi'Ndavah" enough, why must it also say "Olah"?
(g) Answer: Had it not said "Olah", we would have expounded "V'Asisem Isheh la'Sh-m" - Klal; "Lefalei Neder O vi'Ndavah" - Prat; "La'asos Re'ach Nicho'ach la'Sh-m" - Klal, from a Klal Prat u'Klal we learn everything similar to the Pratim, Korbanos not brought on account of sin;
1. We would exclude Chatas and Asham, which are on account of sin, but we would include Bechor, Ma'aser and Pesach!
2. Therefore, it must say "Olah".
(h) Question: Now that it says "Olah", how do we expound the Klal, Prat and Klal?
(i) Answer: The Prat is something which he was not obligated to bring, we include all such Korbanos;
1. This includes offspring of Korbanos, Temuros, Olah that comes from Mosaros (like above, 90A-B), an Asham that was Nitak to Ro'eh (graze until gets a Mum, then it is redeemed), and any Korban slaughtered Lo Lishmah.
2) EXPOUNDING THE WORD "O"
(a) Question: If we expound 'O' (before 'Zevach'), surely we also expound 'O' in "Lefalei Neder O vi'Nedavah" - what does it teach?
(b) Answer #1: This is needed to separate Neder and Nedavah, i.e. Nesachim are brought for even one of them;
1. One might have thought that Nesachim are brought only when both of them are brought.
(c) Question: This is like R. Yoshiyah - according to R. Yonason, how can we answer?
(d) Answer #2: One might have thought one Nesech (Minchah and wine) is brought for a Neder or Nedavah *or* both of them - "O" teaches, this is not so.
(e) Question: What do we learn from "*O* b'Mo'adeichem"?
(f) Answer: One might have thought that two Nesachim are required for Olas Neder brought with Shalmei Nedavah (or vice-versa), but that one Nesech suffices if both of them are Nedarim (or both are Nedavos), for we do not distinguish among Nedarim (or Nedavos) - "O" teaches, this is not so.
(g) Question: What do we learn from "V'Chi Sa'aseh Ven Bakar Olah *O* Zavach"?
(h) Answer: One might have thought that two Nesachim are required for Olas and Shalmei Neder, or for Olas and Shalmei Nedavah, but that one Nesech suffices for Olas Neder and Olas Nedavah, or for Shalmei Neder and Shalmei Nedavah, for we do not distinguish among Olos (or Shelamim) - "O" teaches, this is not so.
(i) Question: What do we learn from "Lefalei Neder *O* Shelamim"?
(j) Answer: One might have thought that two Nesachim are required for Olas Neder and Olas Nedavah, or for Shalmei Neder and Shalmei Nedavah, but one Nesech suffices for two identical Korbanos (two Olos Neder, two Olos Nedavah, two Shalmei Neder or two Shalmei Nedavah) - "O" teaches, this is not so.
(k) Question: According to R. Yoshiyah, why do we need "Min ha'Bakar *O* Min ha'Tzon"? (R. Yonason (90B) used "O" to teach that an Olah can be only a bull *or* Seh, but R. Yoshiyah used the verse merely to exclude birds.)
(l) Answer: One might have thought that two Nesachim are required for different species (i.e. cattle and flock), but one Nesech suffices for identical Korbanos of the same species - "O" teaches, this is not so.
(m) Question: What do we learn from "Kachah Ta'asu la'Echad"?
(n) Answer: One might have thought that two Nesachim are required for Zevachim offered (Rashi; Rashi Kesav Yad - Hukdash) one after the other, but one Nesech suffices if they were (Rashi Kesav Yad - Hukdash and) offered at the same time - this teaches, this is not so.
3) THE "KORBANOS" OF A "METZORA" REQUIRE "NESACHIM"
(a) (Mishnah): The Chatas and Asham of a Metzora require Nesachim.
(b) Question: What is the source of this?
(c) Answer (Beraisa): (A rich Metzora brings) "U'Sheloshah Esronim Soles Minchah..." - this Minchah is on account of the three Zevachim that he brings. (Therefore, each Isaron must be brought by itself, intent (Chutz li'Zmano) in the Zevachim can Mefagel the Minchah...?)
1. Suggestion: Perhaps it is a Minchah that comes by itself!
2. Rejection: It says "Es ha'Olah v'Es ha'Minchah" - this teaches that the Minchah is on account of the Zevach.
3. Question: This shows that Korbanos Metzora require Menachos - do they require Nesachim of wine?
4. Answer: "V'Yayin la'Nesech...Ta'aseh Al ha'Olah O la'Zavach la'Keves ha'Echad" (this is extra, to teach about other Korbanos that require Nesachim):
i. "Ha'Olah" teaches about Olas Metzora, "Zavach" teaches about Chatas Metzora, "O" teaches about Asham Metzora.
(d) Question: Why can't we learn Chatas *and* Asham from "Zavach", like we do regarding Nazir?
91b---------------------------------------91b

1. (Beraisa): Question: What is the source regarding Chatas and Asham (Tosfos - that they may be eaten only one day and one night? Rashi - that the Nazir's hair (which the Torah says is placed under the pot in which the Shelamim is cooked) may alternatively be placed under the pot in which the Chatas or Asham is cooked?)
2. Answer: "Zevach" teaches these.
(e) Answer: Regarding Nazir, they are the same (both come to permit (Rashi Kesav Yad - the Asham to begin Nezirus Taharah, the Chatas) to drink wine and become Tamei.)
1. Regarding Metzora, they are different (the Asham permits him to eat Kodshim or enter the Azarah, the Chatas atones), two verses are required.
(f) (Beraisa): "Zavach" teaches about Chatas Metzora.
(g) Question: Perhaps it teaches about Chatas Nazir and Asham Nazir?
(h) Answer #1 (Beraisa): "U'Minchasam v'Niskeihem" - of the Nazir's Olah and Shelamim.
1. Suggestion: Perhaps this refers to Chatas!
2. Rejection - Question: "V'Es ha'Ayil Ya'aseh Zevach Shelamim...Minchaso v'Es Nisko" - this is unnecessary, it already said that the ram will be a Shelamim!
i. Answer: The ram was mentioned to teach about other Korbanos - it is (Shelamim, which is) brought for Nedavah, Nesachim apply to all such Korbanos.
(i) (Beraisa): "Ha'Olah" teaches about Olas Metzora.
(j) Question: Perhaps it teaches about Olas Yoledes!
(k) Answer #1 (Abaye): We learn Olas Yoledes from the end of the verse:
1. (Beraisa - R. Noson): "La'Keves" - this teaches about Olas Yoledes; "Ha'Echad" - this teaches about the 11th animal to leave the pen (when taking Ma'aser, if the 10th was mistakenly called 'ninth' and the 11th was called 'tenth') it is offered like a Shelamim;
2. Normally, what is secondary is not greater than what is primary! (Ma'aser itself does not require Nesachim, all the more so a Korban that is Kodesh only because one tried to make it Ma'aser should not require Nesachim! Therefore, a verse must teach that it requires Nesachim.)
(l) Answer #2 (to Questions (g) and (j) - Rava): We expound three inclusions from "V'Yayin la'Nesech...Al *ha'Olah O la'Zavach*" - surely, these refer to the three Korbanos of a Metzora!
4) "NESACHIM" FOR DIFFERENT ANIMALS
(a) Question: Why must it say "La'Ayil"? (Rashi Kesav Yad - Bamidbar 15:6, in the Parshah of Nesachim; we would have known from Musafim in Parshas Pinchus that two Esronim is the Minchah for a ram. Shitah Mekubetzes - "Kachah Ye'aseh...O *la'Ayil*" (15:11) is superfluous.)
(b) Answer (Rav Sheshes): This includes the ram of the Kohen Gadol (on Yom Kipur, which atones for Tum'os of Yisrael.)
(c) Question: We learn this from "O b'Mo'adeichem"!
(d) Answer: One might have thought that this only teaches about Korbanos Tzibur, not about Korbanos Yachid.
1. Question: Why is this different than Olas Yoledes? (It is also a Korban Yachid, yet it requires Nesachim!)
2. Answer: Olas Yoledes does not have a fixed time, the Kohen Gadol's ram does, therefore "O b'Mo'adeichem" is needed to teach that it requires Nesachim.
(e) Question: What do we learn from "*O* la'Ayil"?
(f) Answer: This includes a Palgas (a sheep in its 13th month, it requires Nesachim.)
(g) Question: We understand according to R. Yochanan, who says that Palgas is an entity to itself (it is neither a Keves (lamb) nor Ayil (ram)):
1. (Mishnah): If one vowed to offer a lamb or ram and he offered a Palgas, he brings the Nesachim of a ram, but he did not fulfill his vow.
2. (R. Yochanan): "O la'Ayil" includes a Palgas.
3. But Bar Pada says that he brings the Nesachim of a ram and stipulates (that if a Palgas is truly a lamb, the extra Nesachim are Nedavos), since *we* do not know if it is a ram or lamb - according to him, what does the verse teach? Niskei Palgas were already taught (i.e. in the Parshah of Niskei Ayil or Niskei Keves!)
(h) Conclusion: Indeed, this is difficult according to Bar Pada!
(i) "Kachah Ye'aseh la'Shor ha'Echad..." (the verse is superfluous, we expound all of it.)
(j) Question: What do we learn from "La'Shor ha'Echad"?
(k) Answer: The Torah specified different Nesachim for lambs and rams, one might have thought that it likewise distinguishes between bulls and calves;
1. "La'Shor ha'Echad" teaches that we do not distinguish.
(l) Question: What do we learn from "O la'Ayil ha'Echad"?
(m) Answer: The Torah specified different Nesachim for sheep in their first and second years, one might have thought that it likewise distinguishes between the second and third years;
1. "La'Ayil ha'Echad" teaches that we do not distinguish.
(n) Question: What do we learn from "O la'Seh va'Kevasim"?
(o) Answer: The Torah specified different Nesachim for male sheep in their first and second years, one might have thought that it likewise distinguishes between female sheep in their first and second years;
1. "O la'Seh va'Kevasim" teaches that we do not distinguish (both are one Isaron with three Lugim of oil and of wine, like a male lamb.)
(p) Question: What do we learn from "O va'Izim"?
(q) Answer: The Torah specified different Nesachim for adult and baby sheep, one might have thought that it likewise distinguishes between adult and baby goats;
1. "O va'Izim" teaches that we do not distinguish (both are one Isaron with three Lugim, like lambs.)
(r) Question (Rava): What is the Nesech for an adult female sheep? (Rava knew the answer, he was testing his Talmidim.)
(s) Answer (Rav Papa and other Talmidim - Mishnah): (One who needed Nesachim would pay and receive one of four kinds of vouchers.) The voucher for a kid was used for the Nesachim of adult and baby (flock) animals, for males and females, except for rams.

   
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