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08-02-2011
Title:
Menachos 108 - COINS FOR EXTRA

Message:
1) COINS FOR EXTRA "KORBANOS"

(a) The others did not answer like Chizkiyah - we are not concerned for fighting;
(b) The others did not answer like R. Yochanan - we are not concerned for rotting;
(c) They did not answer like Ze'iri - they did not want to establish the Mishnah like an individual;
(d) They did not answer like Bar Pada - it is unreasonable to have a separate box for Mosar, since all of these are Mosar;
1. Also, it is unreasonable to have a separate box for Kalbonos, since they are given with the (half) Shekalim.
2. (Beraisa - R. Meir): The Kalbonos are put with the (half) Shekalim;
3. R. Eliezer says, they go for Nedavah.
(e) Answer #5 (Shmuel): They correspond to six Mosaros - of Chatas, Asham, Asham Nazir, Asham Metzora, Minchas Chotei and Chavitei Kohen Gadol.
(f) Answer #6 (R. Oshaya): They correspond to Mosar of Chatas, Asham, Asham Nazir, Asham Metzora, Kinim and Minchas Chotei.
(g) Shmuel (and the other Amora'im) did not answer like R. Oshaya, for the Reisha already lists Kinim (among seven other boxes.)
(h) Question: Did R. Oshaya's text of the Reisha exclude Kinim?!
1. Indeed, his text included Kinim in the Reisha!
(i) Answer: The Reisha teaches Kinim, the Seifa teaches Mosar Kinim.
(j) R. Oshaya did not answer like Shmuel because he holds like the opinion that Mosar Chavitim must rot:
1. (Beraisa): Mosar Minchas Nedavah, Mosar Minchah must rot.
2. Question: What does this mean?
3. Answer #1 (Rav Chisda): It means, Mosar Minchas Chotei goes to Nedavah (like Mosar Chatas), Mosar Chavitim must rot.
4. Objection (Rabah): Mosar Chavitim also goes to Nedavah!
5. Answer #2 (Rabah): Rather, (Mosar Minchah refers to) Mosar Lachmei Todah (, they) must rot.
(k) Other Amora'im also argue about this:
1. (R. Yochanan): Mosar Chavitim go to Nedavah;
2. (R. Elazar): They must rot.
(l) Question (Mishnah): Extra (money that people designated for their half-) Shekalim are (is) Chulin, Mosar Asiris ha'Eifah, Mosar Kinim of a Zav, Zavah, or Yoledes, Mosar Chatas and Asham are Nedavah.
1. Suggestion: Asiris ha'Eifah refers to Chavitim (which are an Isaron!)
(m) Answer: No, it refers to Minchas Chotei.
(n) Support (for Rav Chisda - Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak - Beraisa): "Lo Yasim Aleha Shemen v'Lo Yiten Aleha Levonah Ki Chatas Hi";
1. (Rav Yehudah): Only Minchas Chotei is called Chatas - this teaches that Mosar Chavitim is not called Chatas, therefore it requires Levonah, and its Mosar must rot.
2) THE REPLACEMENT FOR A BLEMISHED "KORBAN"
(a) (Mishnah): If Reuven said 'This bull is an Olah' and it became blemished, if he wants he may buy two bulls (to be Olos) with its (redemption) money;
1. If he said 'These two bulls are Olos' and they became blemished, he may buy one bull (with the money);
2. Rebbi forbids this.
(b) If he said 'This ram is an Olah' and it became blemished, he may buy a lamb;
1. If he said 'This lamb is an Olah' and it became blemished, he may buy a ram;
2. Rebbi forbids this.
108b---------------------------------------108b

(c) (Gemara) Question (The previous Mishnah): If one vowed to bring a bull for a Maneh and he brought two bulls for a Maneh, he was not Yotzei.
(d) Answer: Here is different, (he is Yotzei, for he is less obligated to replace the Korban for two reasons -) he said 'This' (a Nedavah without Acharayos, not a vow), and it got a Mum.
(e) (Mishnah): If he said 'These two bulls are Olos' and they became blemished, he may buy one bull; Rebbi forbids this.
(f) Question: Why does Rebbi forbid?
(g) Answer: (Because it is better to bring two animals than one animal of their combined value,) this is like bringing a small (inferior) animal in place of a big one;
1. Even though it got a Mum, Rebbi forbids.
(h) Question: (Rebbi forbids bringing a big animal in place of a small one -) he should also forbid in the first clause (bringing two bulls in place of one!)
(i) Answer: Indeed, this is true! He waited until Chachamim finished their teaching, then he argued with both laws.
(j) Support (Seifa): If he said 'This ram is an Olah' and it became blemished, he may buy a lamb;
1. If he said 'This lamb is an Olah' and it became blemished, he may buy a ram;
2. Rebbi forbids this (even though a ram is bigger and better than a lamb!)
(k) Question: May one buy a different species than the original Korban?
(l) Answer (Beraisa): If one said 'This bull is an Olah' and it became blemished, he may not buy a ram with its money (for it is smaller and inferior), but he may buy two rams;
1. Rebbi forbids because Ein Bilah (the Menachos for the two rams may not be mixed together, it does not resemble his initial Korban, which required only one Minchah.)
2. (All agree that one may buy a different species as long as it is not inferior and its Minchah requires the same number of Kelim, e.g. a bull in place of a ram.)
(m) Question: If so, Chachamim should permit buying even one ram, for (in the Mishnah) they permit buying a smaller replacement (e.g. a lamb in place of a ram!)
(n) Answer: Tana'im argue about the opinion of Chachamim (the Tana of the Beraisa says that they forbid buying a smaller replacement.)
(o) (Beraisa - Rebbi): It is forbidden because Ein Bilah.
(p) Inference: If not for Ein Bilah, it would be permitted.
(q) Question (Mishnah): If he said 'This ram is an Olah' and it became blemished, he may buy a lamb; 'This lamb is an Olah'...he may buy a ram;
1. Rebbi forbids this.
2. Even though Bilah is not a problem (in any case one Minchah is brought), Rebbi requires bringing a replacement just like the blemished animal!
(r) Answer: Tana'im argue about the opinion of Rebbi (the Tana of the Beraisa says that he permits as long as the replacement is not inferior and its Minchah requires the same number of Kelim.)
3) THE REPLACEMENT FOR A "KORBAN"
(a) (Continuation of Beraisa): If the animal is unblemished, if he brought a bull in place of a calf, or a ram in place of a lamb, he was Yotzei.
(b) This is like Chachamim (107B, who permit a better replacement.)
(c) (Mishnah): ...If he wants he may buy with its money...
(d) Version #1 (Rav Menasiya bar Zevid): This is only if he said 'This bull is an Olah', but if he said 'This bull is Alai an Olah', it is fixed (he must bring one animal.)
(e) Objection: Perhaps he means, 'It is incumbent on me to bring it for an Olah'!
(f) Correction: Surely, he must have taught the following:
(g) Version #2 (Rav Menasiya bar Zevid): This is only if he said 'This bull is an Olah', or 'This bull is Alai an Olah', but if he said 'This bull and its money are Alai an Olah', it is fixed.
4) AN UNSPECIFIED "KORBAN"
(a) (Mishnah): If Reuven said 'One of my lambs (or bulls) is a Korban':
1. If he has two, the larger one is a Korban;
2. If he has three, the medium one is a Korban (this will be explained.)
(b) If he specified which will be the Korban and does not remember which, or if his father told him that he specified a Korban but did not tell him which, the biggest is a Korban.
(c) (Gemara) Inference: (The first clause teaches that) people are Makdish b'Ayin Yafah (generously.)
(d) Contradiction (The second clause): If he has three, the medium one is a Korban - this shows that people are Makdish b'Ayin Ra'ah (stingily)!
(e) Resolution (Shmuel): The second clause means, we are concerned *even* for the medium one, with respect to the smallest it is Ayin Yafah (but we offer only one of them.)
(f) Question: (Since each is Safek Hekdesh,) how do we offer only one?
(g) Answer (R. Chiya bar Rav): We wait for the medium to get a Mum, it is then redeemed onto the biggest (if the biggest was truly the Korban, no redemption is necessary.)
(h) (R. Gershom requires him to say 'it is redeemed onto the biggest'. Ri Korkus explains Rambam to say that the redemption occurs automatically; he also says that the biggest (even if it gets a Mum) cannot be redeemed onto the medium, for the Kedushah applies primarily to it. Tosfos Yom Tov says that in this case, the biggest is redeemed onto the medium and onto additional money (to make up the difference in value).)
(i) (Rav Nachman): This is only if he said 'One of my bulls (is a Korban)' - but if he said 'A bull of my bulls', only the biggest is a Korban, for he means 'the most important.'
(j) Question: But Rav Huna taught, if one said 'I sell to you a house of my houses', he shows (can give) to him (an) Aliyah;
1. Suggestion: (This refers to an attic,) it is inferior!
(k) Answer #1: No, 'Aliyah' means 'Me'ulah' (best) of his houses.
(l) Question (Beraisa): If one said 'A bull of my bulls is Hekdesh', and similarly if a Hekdesh bull became mixed with Chulin bulls, the biggest is a Korban, the rest are sold to people who need to bring Olos, the money is Chulin.
(m) Answer: 'The rest are sold for Olos' only refers to the mixture (but when one says 'A bull of my bulls is Hekdesh', all but the biggest are Chulin.)
(n) Question: But it says 'and similarly' (implying that the same law applies to both!)
(o) Answer: 'Similarly' refers to the biggest being a Korban, this applies to both cases.
(p) Question (Beraisa): If one said 'I sell to you a house of my houses' (or, 'a slave of my slaves'), and one of them fell (died), he can say, that is the one I sold.
1. According to Rav Nachman, he cannot say this unless the best fell or died!
(q) Answer: The case of a buyer is different, a buyer has the lower hand.
(r) Answer #2 (to Question (j)): This very answer is another answer to Question (j).

   
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