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08-02-2011
Title:
Chulin 17 - SLAUGHTER OF

Message:
1) SLAUGHTER OF "CHULIN"

(a) Answer #2 (Rav Yosef): The Mishnah is like R. Akiva.
1. (Beraisa - R. Akiva): "When you will be far from (the Mikdash) and you will slaughter your cattle and flock" - the verse comes to forbid Nechirah (an animal killed by tearing from the nostrils).
2. In the Midbar, Nechirah was permitted; when Yisrael entered Eretz Yisrael, it was forbidden.
i. One might have thought, in exile, it is permitted again - the Mishnah teaches, this is not so, we must always slaughter.
(b) Question: What do R. Akiva and R. Yishmael argue about?
(c) Answer: R. Akiva holds, Chulin was never forbidden; R. Yishmael holds, Nechirah was never permitted.
(d) According to R. Yishmael we understand "Could enough flock and cattle be slaughtered for them?";
1. Question: According to R. Akiva, why does it say "slaughtered" - it should say, 'Yinacher'!
2. Answer: Since Nechirah was permitted, it was like slaughter.
(e) According to R. Yishmael we understand the following Mishnah.
1. (Mishnah): If the animal became a Neveilah during the slaughter, or if one did Nechirah or uprooted the Simanim, he is exempt from covering the blood.
2. Question: According to R. Akiva, why is he exempt (since Nechirah was considered slaughter, just we may not eat it today)?
3. Answer: Once it became forbidden, it is no longer considered slaughter.
(f) According to R. Akiva, who says that slaughter was never forbidden, we understand "As you (now) eat deer and wild goat, so (in Eretz Yisrael) you will eat (Korbanos that became blemished)."
1. Question: According to R. Yishmael, deer and wild goat (cannot be Korbanos, they) were also forbidden in the Midbar!
2. Answer: The Torah only forbade Behemos (cattle and flock), which could be brought as Korbanos; wild animals (Chayos) were permitted.
(g) Question (R. Yirmeyah): (According to R. Akiva), if Yisrael brought limbs (of animals killed by Nechirah) into Eretz Yisrael, were they permitted?
1. Question: About when does he ask?
i. Suggestion: If during the seven years of conquest - even Tamei animals were permitted, all the more so meat of Nechirah!
ii. (R. Yirmeyah bar Aba): "Houses full of all good" - even pork was permitted.
2. Answer #1: He asks about after the seven years.
3. Answer #2: He asks about during the seven years - the Torah only permitted the spoils of the Kanani'im, not forbidden things belonging to Yisraelim.
(h) This question is unresolved.
(i) Objection (Rava): We explained the first two statements of the Mishnah - 'All slaughter, we always slaughter' - how do we explain the third, 'With all we slaughter'?
1. Suggestion: Perhaps it comes to include a rock, glass or reed.
2. Rejection: It should resemble the first two - if the first two discuss who may slaughter, the third should also; if they speak of what is slaughtered, the third should also.
(j) Answer (Rava): Rather, 'All slaughter' (was taught in the first Mishnah (2A) and also in the Mishnah (15B)) - one of these includes a Kusi, the other a Yisrael Mumar;
1. 'We always slaughter' - by night or day, on the roof or at the head of a ship;
2. 'With all we slaughter' - even with a rock, glass or reed.
2) UNUSEABLE KNIVES
(a) (Mishnah): Except for a reaping scythe or saw.
(b) Shmuel's father repeatedly sent blemished knives to Eretz Yisrael, asking which invalidate a slaughter. They responded - the Mishnah says, a saw (or knives with similar nicks) invalidates slaughter.
17b---------------------------------------17b

(c) (Beraisa): A knife that has many nicks is like a saw; if it has only one nick - if Ogeres, it is invalid; if Mesuchseches, it is valid.
(d) Question: What are Ogeres and Mesuchseches?
(e) Answer (R. Elazar): Ogeres is a nick with catches on both sides; Mesuchseches, on only one side.
(f) Question: Why is there a difference?
1. If there are catches on both sides - the first catch tears the flesh, the second tears the Siman (Kaneh or Veshet);
2. Even if there is only one catch - the pressure of the knife tears the flesh, the catch tears the Siman!
(g) Answer #1: The nick is at the end of the knife.
(h) Objection: Still, when he slides the knife away from himself (while cutting), this tears the flesh; when he returns the knife, this tears the Siman!
(i) Answer #2: He only moves the knife away, he does not return it.
(j) (Rava): There are three laws of knives: if it has an one-sided nick - he may not slaughter with it, if he did, the slaughter is invalid;
1. If it has a two-sided nick - he may not slaughter with it, if he did, the slaughter is valid;
2. If the blade goes up and down (but there are no nicks) - l'Chatchilah, he may slaughter with it.
(k) Rav Huna brei d'Rav Nechemyah (to Rav Ashi): You said that Rava said that a two-sided nick disqualifies the slaughter - here, he says that it is Kosher!
(l) Answer (Rav Ashi): If he only moved the knife away, the slaughter is Kosher; if he also returned the knife, it is invalid.
(m) Question (Rav Acha brei d'Rav Avya): If the knife is like the beard of an ear of grain (not smooth, but without nicks) - what is the law?
(n) Answer (Rav Ashi): I would gladly eat from the meat.
3) CHECK ING THE KNIFE
(a) (Rav Chisda): "You will slaughter with this" - this teaches that a slaughter knife must be checked.
(b) Question: Why must we learn from a verse? A nick in the knife disqualifies the slaughter, of course we must check the knife!
(c) Answer: The verse teaches that a Chacham must check the knife.
(d) Question: But R. Yochanan taught, the enactment that the Chacham checks the knife was made only to honor the Chacham!
(e) Answer: Rav Chisda gives an Asmachta for a Rabbinic law.
(f) In Eretz Yisrael they check the knife in the sun (alternatively - they look at its shadow); in Nehardai, they move it through water (a nick would cause ripples); Rav Sheshes checks it with the tip of his tongue; Rav Acha bar Yakov checks it with a hair;
1. (Chachamim of Sura): Since the knife cuts flesh, it must be checked with flesh (the finger or tongue).
(g) (Rav Papa): The knife must be checked with the finger and fingernail, and on three sides (the surface of the blade and the sides of the blade).
(h) Ravina: I heard you (Rav Ashi) quote Rava to say that the knife must be checked with the finger and fingernail, and on three sides.
(i) Version #1 - Rav Ashi: I said, it must be checked with the finger and fingernail; I did not say it must be checked on three sides.
(j) Version #2 - Rav Ashi: I said, it must be checked with the finger and fingernail, and on three sides, but I did not say this in Rava's name.
(k) Rav Acha brei d'Rava checked a knife with his finger and fingernail and on three sides; Rav Ashi approved, Rav Kahana also agrees.
(l) (Rav Yemar): It must be checked with the finger and fingernail; it need not be checked on three sides - we learn from R. Zeira.
1. (R. Zeira): Slaughter with a glowing hot knife it Kosher, for the blade cuts before burning through the Simanim.
2. Question: But it burns the Simanim on the sides (of the blade, as it cuts)!
3. Answer: As the Simanim are cut, the sides of the cut separate from each other (so the blade does not touch them).
i. Also regarding a cold knife - even if it has a nick on the side, it will not touch the Simanim!
(m) (Rav Huna bar Rav Ketina): Three things have the same intolerance for nicks:
1. The prohibition of breaking a bone of the Korban Pesach;
2. A nick in the ear (or other parts) of a firstborn animal (such a Mum disqualifies it from being offered as a Korban, and allows the Kohen to eat it like Chulin);
3. A Mum in (the Ervah of) a (female) animal.
(n) (Rav Chisda): To this list we may add a nick on a knife for slaughter.
1. Rav Huna only listed Kodshim matters.
(o) The tolerance for all of these is the same as for a nick on the Mizbe'ach.

   
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