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08-03-2011
Title:
Chulin 19 - WHERE TO CUT THE

Message:
1) WHERE TO CUT THE "KANEH"

(a) The Halachah is, the Kaneh must be cut below the place where the Kova starts to slope.
1. This is like the opinion that leaving over in the Chiti is Kosher.
(b) Rav Nachman permitted cutting the Kaneh below the place where the Kova starts to slope.
(c) Question (Rav Chanan bar Rav Ketina): This is not like Chachamim, nor like R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah!
(a) Answer (Rav Nachman): I rely on what I heard.
1. (R. Chiya bar Aba citing R. Yochanan): Below the place where the Kova starts to slope is Kosher.
(b) (R. Yehoshua ben Levi): What Chachamim consider Hagramah is Kosher according to R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah; what R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah considers Hagramah is Kosher according to R. Chanina ben R. Antigonus.
1. Question: This is obvious (they explicitly argue about Hagramah in the Mishnah and Beraisa)!
2. Answer: One might have thought, R. Chanina ben Antigonus only permits the Hagramah of Chachamim - R. Yehoshua ben Levi teaches, he permits the Hagramah of R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah.
(c) The Halachah follows R. Chanina ben Antigonus because Rav Nachman holds like him.
2) PARTIAL "HAGRAMAH"
(a) Version #1 (Rav Huna citing Rav Asi): Chachamim and R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah argue when the first two thirds were slaughtered, and the last third was Hagramah (cut in a place invalid for slaughter);
1. Chachamim require the entire slaughter in the ring; R. Yosi says, the majority is enough.
(b) If the first third was Hagramah, and the last two thirds were slaughtered, all agree that this is invalid, for the slaughter is completed when the majority is cut, and at that point, there was more Hagramah than slaughter.
(c) Question (Rav Chisda): Just the opposite! They argue when the first third was Hagramah, and the last two thirds were slaughtered;
1. R. Yosi is Machshir, just like when half the Kaneh was cut (not through slaughter) before the slaughter;
2. Chachamim say that Hagramah is worse (than when half the Kaneh was already cut), for the Kaneh was not cut in the place of slaughter.
(d) If the first two thirds were slaughtered, and the last third was Hagramah, all agree that this is Kosher.
(e) Support (Mishnah): (Cutting) the majority of a Siman is like (cutting) the whole Siman.
(f) Rejection (Rav Yosef): Perhaps that Mishnah is only like R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah!
(g) Question (Abaye): Do Chachamim hold that the majority is not like the whole?!
(h) Answer (Rav Yosef): I only discuss slaughter, in which we find that Chachamim do not consider a majority as the whole.
(i) Version #2 (Rav Huna citing Rav Asi): Chachamim and R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah argue when the first third was Hagramah, and the last two thirds were slaughtered;
1. R. Yosi is Machshir, like when half the Kaneh was cut before slaughtering;
2. Chachamim say that Hagramah is worse, for the Kaneh was not cut in the place of slaughter.
(j) If the first two thirds were slaughtered, and the last third was Hagramah, all are Machshir.
(k) Support (Mishnah): (Cutting) the majority of a Siman is like (cutting) the whole Siman.
(l) Rejection (Rav Chisda): Perhaps that Mishnah is only like R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah!
(m) Question (Rav Yosef): Do Chachamim hold that the majority is not like the whole?!
(n) Answer (Rav Chisda): I only discuss slaughter, in which we find that Chachamim do not consider a majority as the whole. (End of Version #2)
(o) (Rav Huna citing Rav): If a third was Hagramah, a third was slaughtered, and the last third was Hagramah, this is Kosher;
1. This is because slaughter is complete when the majority is cut, and this occurred in a valid place for slaughter.
(p) (Rav Yehudah citing Rav): This is Treifah, for the majority (of the majority of the Kaneh) must be (cut in a valid place for) slaughter (and here, a third was Hagramah, and a sixth was slaughter).
(q) (Rav Yehudah citing Rav): If a third was slaughtered, a third was Hagramah, and the last third was slaughtered, this is Kosher;
(r) (Rav Huna): This is Treifah.
1. Rav Yehudah was upset - Rav Huna says the opposite of whatever I say!
2. Rav Huna: He has two reasons to be upset - firstly, he heard from Rav, but I ruled (this latter case) from my own reasoning;
i. Also - the majority was slaughtered!
3. Rav Chisda: You should not retract, for then you will also have to retract your first teaching (which you heard from Rav).
19b---------------------------------------19b

i. In for your first teaching, you were Machshir because the cut that made the majority (just past midway through the Kaneh) occurred in a valid place of slaughter - in the second teaching, it occurred in an invalid place, so it is Treifah!
3) PARTIAL "HAGRAMAH"
(a) Question: If a third was slaughtered, a third was Hagramah, and the last third was slaughtered, what is the law?
(b) Answer (Rav Nachman): This is like R. Elazar bar Minyomi's teaching!
1. (R. Elazar bar Minyomi): Slaughter like a comb (zigzag) is Kosher.
(c) Rejection: Perhaps that is only when all the cutting was (in a valid place for) slaughter.
(d) Question: If so, obviously it is Kosher!
(e) Answer: One might have thought, slaughter must be exposed - Rav Nachman teaches, this is not so.
(f) Question (Rav Kahana): If a third was slaughtered, a third was Hagramah, and the last third was slaughtered - what is the law?
(g) Answer (Rav Yehudah): It is Kosher.
(h) Question (Rav Kahana): If a third was Hagramah, a third was slaughtered, a third was Hagramah - what is the law?
(i) Answer (Rav Yehudah): It is Treifah.
(j) Question (Rav Kahana): If he slaughtered (started cutting) where there already was a hole - what is the law?
(k) Answer (Rav Yehudah): It is Kosher.
(l) Question (Rav Kahana): If he slaughtered and encountered a hole (which completed the majority of the Kaneh) - what is the law?
(m) Answer (Rav Yehudah): It is invalid.
1. R. Elazar said this before R. Yochanan.
2. R. Yochanan: What is the difference between the last two cases?
3. Answer (R. Elazar): If he slaughtered where there already was a hole - this is as if a Nochri began cutting, and a Yisrael finished the slaughter;
i. If he slaughtered and encountered a hole, this is as if a Yisrael began cutting, and a Nochri finished the slaughter.
4. R. Yochanan: You compare holes to slaughter of a Nochri (but this is wrong)!
i. Rava: R. Yochanan's objection is valid. When a Nochri finishes the slaughter, it is invalid, since a Yisrael must finish it;
ii. But when there already was a hole - all that had to be cut was cut, what difference does it make where the hole was?!
4) THE PLACE FOR "MELIKAH" AND SLAUGHTER
(a) (Mishnah): Slaughter from the side of the neck is Kosher; Melikah (cutting Siman(im) of a bird-offering using the Kohen's fingernail) from the side of the neck is invalid;
(b) Slaughter from the Oref (back of the head) is invalid; Melikah from the Oref is Kosher;
(c) Slaughter from the (front of the) neck is Kosher; Melikah from the neck is invalid;
1. The entire neck is Kosher for slaughter; the entire Oref is Kosher for Melikah.
2. What is Kosher for slaughter is invalid for Melikah; what is Kosher for Melikah is invalid for slaughter.
(d) (Gemara) Question: What does Oref (in the Mishnah) refer to?
1. Suggestion: If it is literally the back of the head opposite the face - not only slaughter on the Oref is invalid, even Melikah there is invalid!
i. Melikah must be "Mi'Mul Arpo (facing the Oref)", not the Oref itself.
(e) Answer: Rather, it means facing (i.e. below) the Oref.
1. Support (end of our Mishnah): The *entire* Oref is Kosher for Melikah (implying, it is a large area).
(f) Question: What is the source (that this is the place for Melikah)?
(g) Answer (Beraisa): "Mi'Mul Arpo" - opposite, facing the Oref.
1. We learn from "(Benei Yisrael) are dwelling Mul (facing) me" and "They turned Oref to me, not faces."
2. Question: Why is the second verse needed
3. Answer: To show that Oref means the other side of the face.
(h) (Benei R. Chiya): One moves the Simanim behind the spine and does Melikah.
1. Version #1: They mean, such a Melikah is also Kosher.
2. Version #2: They mean, only such a Melikah is Kosher.
(i) Support (for Version #1 - Mishnah): Slaughter from the Oref is invalid, Melikah from the Oref is Kosher.
1. If Melikah requires moving the Simanim behind the spine, such a slaughter is also Kosher from the Oref!
2. Rather, Melikah is Kosher either way, the Mishnah discusses when he did not move them (therefore, slaughter from the Oref is invalid).

   
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