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08-04-2011
Title:
Chulin 30 - CHANGING THE STATUS OF A KORBAN

Message:
1) CHANGING THE STATUS OF A KORBAN

(a) Objection (Abaye): Rava's question remains, for R. Yochanan taught that this unauthored Beraisa is the opinion of R. Elazar b'Rebbi Shimon, but Chachamim say that two may slaughter one Korban!
1. Even according to R. Elazar, we may distinguish in the case of a valid Parah, if the slaughterer wore one hat at the start of slaughter, and a different hat at the end of slaughter (only the latter should become Tamei)!
(b) Answer #2 (Abaye): We must say, the Mishnah only teaches cases when the Parah is disqualified.
(c) Question (Rav Idi bar Avin - Mishnah): If a Korban Pesach (was not offered on Erev Pesach, rather,) was slaughtered during Pesach by someone that had Chametz:
1. If he slaughtered it for the sake of Korban Pesach (it is invalid, so) he is exempt for slaughtering it while owning Chametz;
2. If he slaughtered it to be a different Korban (it is valid, so) he is liable.
3. Version #1 - Rashi - Question (Inference): He is liable only because he intended for a different Korban - without special intention, he would be exempt!
i. Question: Since it was not offered on Erev Pesach, the Korban is destined to be offered as a Shelamim - without special intent, it should be a valid Shelamim, and he should be liable!
4. Version #2 - Tosfos - Question: Since it was not offered on Erev Pesach, the Korban is destined to be a Shelamim - even if he intended to offer it as a Pesach, it should be valid (as a Shelamim), he should be liable! (End of Version #2)
5. Answer: It must be, it does not automatically become a Shelamim, one must change its status from a Pesach to make it a Shelamim.
6. Rejection (R. Chiya bar Gamda): No, the case is that the owners were Teme'im on Erev Pesach, so the Korban is destined to be offered as a Pesach on Pesach Sheni.
i. Only in this case, its status must be changed to make it a Shelamim - but if the owners (were Tehorim and) brought a different Korban on Erev Pesach, and this will not be used as a Pesach, it is automatically a Shelamim!
7. (Culmination of Rav Idi's question): This is reasonable if the entire slaughter is considered slaughter - the Korban became unfit at the beginning of the slaughter, therefore he is exempt.
i. But if only the end is considered slaughter - at the start of slaughter, it became unfit to use on Pesach Sheni, it becomes a Shelamim, he should be liable!
(d) Answer (Abaye): Granted, once he started slaughter, it became unfit to offer on Pesach Sheni - however, it was destined to be redeemed, the redemption money would be used to buy another Pesach (therefore, it does not automatically become a Shelamim).
(e) Question: But we can redeem an animal only if it can stand up for appraisal!
(f) Answer (derived from a Mishnah): If both Simanim or their majority was slaughtered, and the animal is still quivering, it is considered alive (i.e. it can be appraised).
2) INTERMITTENT SLAUGHTER
(a) (Rav): If one slaughters in two or three places, this is valid.
(b) (Shmuel and Reish Lakish): This is invalid - we require an exposed slaughter.
(c) Question (R. Elazar - Mishnah): If two people are holding knives and slaughter, even one above and one below, this is valid.
1. Such a slaughter is not exposed, yet it is valid!
(d) Answer (R. Yirmeyah): It means, if two people are holding a knife, even they hold it on opposite ends, their slaughter is Kosher.
(e) Question (R. Aba - Beraisa): We are not concerned that they will make it a Treifah.
1. We understand if each cuts with his own knife - one might have thought that each will rely on the other to cut the majority of the Siman (and neither will cut the majority).
2. But if they cut with one knife - the concern is not be that they will make it a Treifah, rather, Drasah (they will press on the knife)!
(f) Answer (R. Avin): Indeed, the Beraisa should say 'We are not concerned for Drasah.'
30b---------------------------------------30b

(g) Question (R. Avin - Beraisa): If he slaughtered the Veshet below and the Kaneh above or vice-versa, this is Kosher.
1. Such a slaughter is not exposed!
(h) Answer (R. Avin): He slaughtered on a slant, it is exposed.
(i) An ox was slaughtered in two or three places; R. Yitzchak bar Shmuel took from the choice parts to eat.
(j) Version #1 - Rashi (R. Zeira): We learn from you that the Mishnah permits slaughter done by two people, each holding his own knife.
(k) Version #2 - Tosfos - Question (R. Zeira): Didn't you teach us that when the Mishnah permits slaughter done by two people, this is when they are holding one knife?!
3) "CHALADAH"
(a) (Rav Yehudah): Chaladah (slaughter when the knife is covered) between the Simanim is invalid; if he cut when the knife was under the skin, this is Kosher.
(b) Question: We already learned the first law in a Mishnah!
1. (Mishnah - R. Yeshevav): If he Hichlid the knife under the second Siman and cut it, the animal is a Neveilah;
2. R. Akiva says, it is a Treifah.
(c) Answer: One might have thought that the Mishnah only applies when he cut (the second Siman) from the back of the neck towards the front; but when he cuts from the front towards the back, it is Kosher - Rav Yehudah teaches that this is not so.
(d) (Rav Yehudah): If he cut when the knife was under the skin, this is Kosher.
(e) (Bei Rav): I do not know what the law is in this case.
(f) Question: What would Bei Rav say if the knife was under a cloth, or covered by the animal's wool?
1. This question is unresolved.
(g) Question (Rav Papa): What is the law if he cut the minority of the Simanim (Rashi - the remaining minority, after cutting the majority; Tosfos - the beginning of the slaughter) when the knife was covered?
1. This question is unresolved.
4) "DERASAH"
(a) (Mishnah): If one slaughters two heads at once, they are Kosher;
(b) If two people are holding a knife, even if one (holds)
above and the other below, their slaughter is Kosher.
(c) If one chops off the head at once, this is invalid;
(d) If he slaughtered and chopped off the head - if the knife is as long as the neck, this is Kosher;
(e) If he slaughtered and chopped off the heads of two animals - if the knife is as long as one neck, this is Kosher.
1. This is when he cut in only one direction, either moving the knife away from himself or drawing it towards himself; but if he cut in both directions, no matter how small the knife is, even a tiny razor, the slaughter is valid.
(f) (Gemara) Question: What is the source (that one must slide the knife, not chop)?
(g) Answer #1 (Shmuel): "An arrow Shochat" (slaughter is drawn, like an arrow).
(h) Answer #2 (Tana d'Vei R. Yishmael): "V'Shochat" is a language of drawing -"Gold Shochat" (slaughter is drawn, like gold).
1. Also, it says "An arrow Shochat".
(i) Question: Why is the second verse needed?
(j) Answer: One might have thought, the first verse speaks of gold spun like a thread.

   
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