Chulin 33 - THE CONSEQUENCES OF CUTTING THE
1) THE CONSEQUENCES OF CUTTING THE "SIMANIM"
(a) Version #1 - Rashi - Rejection (Rav Acha bar Yakov): This is no proof that R. Zeira retracted - perhaps, he asked his question according to Rava, even though he personally holds that the animal is Kosher no matter where the wound is.
(b) Version #2 - Tosfos - Rejection (Rav Acha bar Yakov): This is no proof that R. Zeira retracted - perhaps he objected to an inconsistency in Rava's opinion!
1. I (R. Zeira) hold that no matter where the wound is, the animal becomes Treifah. If you hold that a wound in the lungs does not make it Treifah, you should say the same regarding a wound in the intestines! (End of Version #2)
(c) (Rav Acha bar Yakov): We may derive from Reish Lakish's law that a Yisrael may eat intestines, but a Nochri may not
1. This is because for a Yisrael, the slaughter is necessary to permit the animal;
2. Slaughter is not needed for a Nochri, it only matters if the animal is dead. (Once the Veshet is cut, we view the intestines as if they were removed). Therefore, for him, the intestines are forbidden, like Basar Min ha'Chai (meat taken from a living animal), even after the animal later dies.
(d) (Rav Papa): I thought to ask, that we never find something permitted to a Yisrael and forbidden to a Nochri!
1. I did not ask, for Rav Acha gave a good reason why this is an exception.
(e) Question (Beraisa): There is a way to eat meat *taken* from an animal before it died. After slaughter, cut a piece from the place of slaughter, salt it well and rinse it well; it is permitted *after* the animal dies, to Yisraelim and Nochrim.
(f) This Beraisa supports Rav Idi.
1. (Rav Idi bar Avin): It is very healthy to eat meat taken from an animal before it died. One cuts a piece from the place of slaughter, salts and rinses it well; after the animal dies it is permitted to Yisraelim and Nochrim.
2) BLOODLESS SLAUGHTER
(a) (Mishnah): An animal, wild animal or bird was slaughtered, and no blood came out. It may be eaten with Tamei hands, since the meat was not Huchshar (no liquid come upon it);
(b) R. Shimon says, slaughter is Machshir the meat.
(c) (Gemara) Question: We infer, if blood came out, it would be forbidden to eat it with Tamei hands - why is this?
1. Tamei hands are only a Sheni l'Tumah (second-degree Tumah), they would not make the meat Tamei, for Chulin cannot become a Shelishi l'Tumah!
2. Question: How do we know that the Mishnah discusses Chulin meat?
3. Answer #1: The Mishnah includes Chayos, which cannot be Korbanos.
4. Answer #2: Regarding Kodshim, we would not say they are Kosher if no blood came out - the blood must be put on the Mizbe'ach!
5. Answer #3: Regarding Kodshim, even if blood came out, it is not Machshir.
i. (R. Chiya bar Aba): "You will spill (the blood) on the ground like water" - only blood which is spilled like water is Machshir (to exclude blood of Kodshim, which is collected and thrown on the Mizbe'ach).
6. Answer #4: Regarding Kodshim, Chibas ha'Kodesh (a stringency of Kodshim) is Machshir the meat without any liquid.
(d) Answer #1 (Rav Nachman): The Mishnah speaks of Chulin meat bought with money of Ma'aser Sheni; the Tana argues with R. Meir.
1. (Mishnah - R. Meir): Anyone that must immerse mid'Rabanan:
i. If he touches Kodshim, it becomes Tamei (if it touches other Kodshim, it disqualifies them); if he touches Terumah, it is Pasul (itself Tamei, but unable to disqualify other Terumah); Ma'aser Sheni is permitted to him;
2. Chachamim say, Ma'aser Sheni is forbidden to him.
(e) Objection (Rav Simi bar Ashi): Chachamim only forbid him to *eat* Ma'aser Sheni, they do not say that he may not touch it!
1. The Mishnah says, the meat may be *eaten* with (i.e. using) Tamei hands - the case is, one with Tamei hands feeds it to a Tahor person! (Even Chachamim would permit this regarding Ma'aser Sheni, even if it was Huchshar.)
3) "TUM'AH" OF HANDS
(a) Answer #2 (Rav Papa): The Mishnah discusses hands that are Rishon (first degree) l'Tumah, according to R. Shimon ben Elazar.
1. (Beraisa): Hands are never Rishon l'Tumah regarding Chulin;
2. R. Shimon ben Elazar says, they can be Rishon l'Tumah regarding Chulin, and Sheni l'Tum'ah regarding Terumah.
i. Question: It cannot be that they become Rishon l'Tumah regarding Chulin, but not regarding Terumah!
ii. Answer: He means, they can become Rishon l'Tumah even regarding Chulin; they can become Sheni l'Tum'ah regarding Terumah, but not for Chulin.
3. Question: Can hands really become Rishon l'Tumah?
4. Answer: Yes!
i. (Beraisa - R. Akiva): If one entered his hands into a house stricken with Tzara'as, they become Rishon l'Tumah;
ii. Chachamim say, they become Sheni l'Tumah.
iii. All agree that partially entering is not considered entering - R. Akiva decrees that the hands are like the body would be if (the majority of) the body entered; Chachamim decree that his hands become like regular unguarded hands.
5. Question: Why didn't Rav Papa say that the Mishnah is R. Akiva?
6. Answer: R. Akiva only said that they are a Rishon l'Tumah regarding Terumah, perhaps he does not say so regarding Chulin.
7. Question: Even if R. Akiva says that they are only a Sheni l'Tumah regarding Chulin, he holds that they are Metamei the meat, for he holds that Chulin can become a Shelishi l'Tumah!
i. (Mishnah): On that day (that R. Eliezer ben Azaryah was appointed Nasi), R. Akiva expounded: "Any earthenware vessel...Yitma (food inside becomes Tamei)".
ii. It does not say 'Tamei', rather "Yitma", to show that (a loaf inside, which is a Sheni) can Metamei other food (make a Shelishi).
8. Answer: Perhaps he only said this regarding mid'Oraisa Tum'ah, not for Tum'ah mid'Rabanan.
4) "CHULIN" TREATED LIKE "KODESH"
(a) Answer #3 (R. Elazar): The Mishnah discusses Chulin *Al Taharas* (i.e. which one guards from Tum'ah like) Kodesh, it is not like R. Yehoshua.
1. (Beraisa - R. Eliezer): If one eats food which is a Rishon, Sheni or Shelishi l'Tumah, he becomes Tamei like the food he ate;
2. R. Yehoshua says, if he ate a Rishon or Sheni, he becomes a Sheni; if he ate a Shelishi, he becomes a Sheni regarding Kodesh, but not regarding Terumah.
i. The Shelishi he ate is Chulin Al Taharas Terumah.
3. Inference: R. Yehoshua discusses Chulin Al Taharas Terumah, but not Chulin Al Taharas Kodesh, for the latter cannot become a Shelishi.