Post A Note
Ask The Rabbi
Torah Study
Miracles
My613
Kitzurdaf
Chat Room
World News
One Minute Joke
Famous Quotes

Free Advertisements
FREE CLASSIFIEDS

Hakol b'yday Shemayim Chutx m'Yiras Shemayim

 
 


Chesed Club World Wide Center & Discussion Groups

Username:   Password:

Create new account - Forgot username or password?


Kitzurdaf

Back - Print Page

08-24-2011
Title:
Chulin 58 - EGGS OF A

Message:
1) EGGS OF A "TEREIFAH"

(a) Version #1 (according to Rav Acha - Ameimar): If a female bird became a Tereifah, eggs that were inside at the time are forbidden;
1. Eggs that formed later are permitted, for Zeh v'Zeh Gorem (something that comes from two sources, one of which (in this case, the father) is permitted) is permitted.
(b) Question (Rav Ashi - Mishnah): They (Rashi - R. Eliezer and R. Yehoshua; Tosfos - Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel) agree that eggs of a Tereifah are forbidden, for they grew inside a forbidden bird.
(c) Answer (Ameimar): That refers to eggs that developed without a male (the hen warmed itself in the dirt.)
1. Question: Why didn't he answer, the Mishnah discusses eggs inside the bird when it became Tereifah?
2. Answer: If so, it should not say that the eggs *grew* inside a forbidden bird, rather that they were *completed* inside a forbidden bird.
(d) Question (Mishnah - R. Eliezer): The offspring of a Tereifah may not be offered (for a Korban); R. Yehoshua says, it may be offered.
1. Question: What do they argue about?
2. Answer: The case is, the mother became Tereifah, then it became preganant:
i. R. Eliezer holds, Zeh v'Zeh Gorem is forbidden; R. Yehoshua holds, it is permitted.
3. Question: If so, why do they argue about Korbanos - the argument applies even to Chulin!
4. Answer: They argue about Korbanos to show the extremity of R. Yehoshua's opinion, the offspring is Kosher even for a Korban.
5. Question: They should argue about Chulin to show the extremity of R. Eliezer's opinion, it is forbidden even for Chulin!
6. Answer: It is better to show the extremity of the lenient opinion.
(e) (Mishnah): They agree that eggs of a Tereifah are forbidden.
1. This discusses eggs that developed without a male, they are due solely to the mother.
(f) Version #1 is like Rav Acha, who holds like Rav Acha bar Yakov.
(g) Version #2 (according to Ravina, who argues with Rav Acha bar Yakov - Ameimar):If a female bird doubtfully became a Tereifah, we hold onto eggs that were inside at the time:
1. If the bird later forms more eggs, all the eggs are permitted, if it does not form more eggs, the (first) eggs are forbidden.
(h) Question (Rav Ashi - Mishnah): They agree that eggs of a Tereifah are forbidden, for they grew inside a forbidden animal.
(i) Answer (Ameimar): This discusses eggs inside the bird when it became Tereifah.
(j) Question: If so, it should not say that the eggs *grew* inside a forbidden bird, rather that they were *completed* inside a forbidden bird!
(k) Answer: Indeed, the Mishnah should say that they were completed inside a forbidden bird.
(l) Question (Mishnah - R. Eliezer): The offspring of a Tereifah may not be offered like a Korban; R. Yehoshua says, it may be offered.
1. Question: What do they argue about?
2. Answer: The case is, the animal became Tereifah when it was already pregnant.
i. R. Eliezer holds that a fetus is like a limb of the mother (when the mother becomes Tereifah, also the fetus is forbidden); R. Yehoshua holds, the fetus is independent.
3. Question: If so, why do they argue about Korbanos - the argument applies even to Chulin!
4. Answer: They argue about Korbanos to show the extremity of R. Yehoshua's opinion, the offspring is Kosher even for a Korban.
5. Question: They should argue about Chulin to show the extremity of R. Eliezer's opinion, it is forbidden even for Chulin!
6. Answer: It is better to show the extremity of the lenient opinion.
(m) (Mishnah): They agree that eggs of a Tereifah are forbidden.
1. This discusses eggs that were inside when it became Tereifah - they are like part of the bird, and became forbidden with it. (End of Version #2)
(n) The Halachah is - if a doubtfully Tereifah male lives 12 months, it is Kosher; if a doubtfully Tereifah female bears new eggs, it is Kosher.
(o) (Rav Huna): Any creature without bones cannot last 12 months.
(p) (Rav Papa): From Rav Huna's teaching we may derive the coming (second) law of Shmuel.
1. (Shmuel): If a gourd became wormy while growing, it is forbidden;
58b---------------------------------------58b

2. Dates that were harvested 12 months ago are permitted. (We assume that any worms inside developed inside and never left, they were not "Shoretz Al ha'Aretz". Rosh (citing Ra'avad) - even though dead worms are forbidden, after 12 months, they are totally dry, they are like dirt.)
3. (Rav): A mosquito does not live more than a day; a fly does not live more than a year.
4. Question (Rav Papa): But people say, a female mosquito rebelled on her husband for seven years because he once enjoyed sucking a man's blood without telling her!
i. Counter-question (Abaye): People also say, one can hang 60 Manim (huge measures) of iron on a mosquito's stinger - of course that cannot be, it is too small!
ii. Answer: Rather, relative to its size, one can hang 60 Manim;
iii. Similarly, relative to its lifespan, she rebelled for seven years.
2) EXTRA OR MISSING ORGANS
(a) (Mishnah): If an animal has five or three legs, this is a blemish;
(b) (Rav Huna): This refers to the forelegs, but a missing or extra hind leg is a Tereifah.
1. This is because anything extra is considered like if it is missing.
(c) There was a Chayah with an extra Sanya Divi (blind gut); Ravina ruled that it is Tereifah.
1. If the two Sanya Divi pour into each other, it is Kosher.
(d) An animal had a conduit connecting the Beis ha'Kosos and the Masas; Rav Ashi was about to rule that it is Tereifah.
1. Rav Huna Mar bar Chiya: All self-grazing animals have such a conduit!
(e) An animal had a conduit connecting the Beis ha'Kosos and the Keres; Mar bar Rav Ashi was about to rule that it is Kosher.
1. R. Oshiya: You cannot extrapolate! It was only said that a conduit connecting the Beis ha'Kosos and the Masas is Kosher!
(f) Noson bar Shilo was the chief slaughterer of Tzipori; he testified before Rebbi that two (beginnings of) small intestines in an animal is Tereifah; in a bird, it is Kosher.
1. This only applies if they emanate from two places; but if they emanate from one place, and finish within a finger's width, it is Kosher.
2. (Rav Ami or Rav Asi): It is Kosher only if they later rejoin.
3. (The other of Rav Ami and Rav Asi): It is Kosher even if they don't later rejoin.
4. According to the first opinion, they must *merge* within a finger's width.
i. Question: According to the second opinion - what does it mean, 'they finish within a finger's width'?
ii. Answer: They merge at least a finger's width before the rectum.
3) IF THE SMALL FEATHERS ARE MISSING
(a) (Mishnah - R. Yehudah): If the small feathers are missing, it is Tereifah.
(b) (R. Yochanan): R. Yehudah and R. Yishmael agree with each other.
1. (Mishnah - R. Yishmael): The small feathers join (Rashi - regarding Chutz li'Zmano, intent to eat these feathers is like intent to eat the meat; Tosfos - they join to the meat to comprise a Shi'ur (the volume of an egg) for Tum'as Ochlim.)
(c) Rejection (Rava): They could argue with each other!
1. Perhaps R. Yehudah only said that if the feathers are missing it is Tereifah, for they are needed to protect the skin - but he holds like Chachamim, they are not like meat (regarding Pigul or Tum'ah);
2. Perhaps R. Yishmael only said that they are like meat (regarding Pigul or Tum'ah) - but even without them it is Kosher, for they do not protect the skin!
4) FOODS THAT CAN KILL
(a) (Mishnah): The following animals are Kosher:
1. One that was afflicted by excess blood, or inhaled smoke, or became sick through chills, or ate Hardufni (a poison that kills animals), or ate cat excrement, or drank exposed water (into which snakes may have put venom), it is Kosher;
(b) If it ate a poison (that kills people) or was bitten by a snake, it is Kosher, but it is forbidden to eat because the meat may be poisonous.
(c) (Gemara - Shmuel): If Chiltis (a hard, pointy plant) is put down an animal's throat, it is Tereifah, for it will puncture the innards.
(d) Question (Rav Shizbi - Beraisa): If an animal was afflicted by excess blood, or inhaled smoke, became sick through chills, ate Hardufni, or ate cat excrement, drank exposed water, or had Chiltis, Tei'ah or peppers put down its throat, or ate poison, it is Kosher;
1. If it was bitten by a snake or a rabid dog, it is Kosher, but it is forbidden to eat because of danger.
2. This Beraisa refutes Shmuel regarding Chiltis, and contradicts the Mishnah regarding poison!
(e) Answer - part 1: Shmuel discusses eating stalks of Chiltis, the Beraisa discusses leaves of Chiltis.
(f) Answer #2: The Beraisa discusses poison that kills animals; the Mishnah discusses poison that kills people.
(g) Question: But the Beraisa also discusses Hardufni, which kills animals (so surely, the 'poison' it refers to kills people!)
(h) Answer: It discusses Hardufni and another poison that kills animals.
(i) Question: What is Tei'ah?
(j) Answer (Rav Yehudah): It is the poisonous root of aconite.

   
| Chesed club | How to get started | Guide for the Shomrim | Short Prayer | In English |
| Short Prayer In Hebrew | 10 Rules Of Shmiras | Haloshon | Hebrew/English |

ChesedClub
851 N.E. 182 Tr
N.M.B. Fl. 33162
305.491.1326 Cell
786.999.0282 Fax

E-Mail: samtamir@gmail.com